Absolutely FR.
We have decided to replace CD playing with streaming, though no final decision just yet on which streamer.
Best regards, BF
Absolutely FR.
We have decided to replace CD playing with streaming, though no final decision just yet on which streamer.
Best regards, BF
@frenchrooster,…Have you listened to the French TotalDac’s streamer.
Many of their products have received good reviews.
I have a USB-cable from TotalDac.
/Peder🙂
they seem to sound very nice but on the polite side. A member who has the middle totaldac found it specially slow when he heard the ndx2 recently. But he still prefers his totaldac in general.
I decided to keep my nds for now , but i bought a melco n1a2, and waiting for it.
The rega rp10 gives me also a lot of pleasure with my tubes phono stage.
The next upgrade will be very probably the musicworks powerblock with a kharma power cable.
Enjoy the Kef 202 Peder!
Excellent - i’ll enjoy reading your impressions. I was hoping to see a pair appear on here.
Are you going t9 use the Melco just as a posh NAS hanging off the side of the Cisco?
Or will you run all internet streamed files through it too?
So, to impressions of the Dutch & Dutch 8C active speakers.
The first impression is that they are so flexible that it is complicated to explain all the combinations that are possible. Set up also takes a while, much longer than for passive speakers, so an instant swap style demo is not really viable for the 8C. Home audition is a must, as indicated below.
I tried them in the following 3 ways:
As we want to stream music from the Prestige 3 server (using Roon) and play records on the turntable, the system has to cope with both digital and analogue inputs. This is a critical consideration and one which would result in a different conclusion if we were only streaming music.
Starting with the speakers in analogue mode, the first step was to set up the speakers in the desired location (30cm from a solid back wall) and then run REW room analyser software to identify any room modes. Our listening room is fairly benign, except for a 12dB mode at 31.5Hz. That one needed dialling out.
This was remarkably easy to do using the www.lanspeaker.com website that you can run from a phone, tablet or laptop, once you have connected the speakers to your home network using standard CAT5e or CAT6 ethernet cables. The ethernet patch cables only need to be in place when setting up or changing the speakers. Once set up, the patch cables can be removed. 12dB is a lot of correction, so we started with -5dB on the left speaker and -3dB on the right.
Then we started to stream music from the Prestige 3 server, with the server acting as both Roon Core and End point, out via a Curious Cables USB cable to the RME and then via Mogami balanced XLR cables to the speakers. In this mode, the RME is acting as source selector and analogue volume control. The 8C converts the analogue to digital, applies room correction and phasing in the digital domain, then internal DACs convert back to analogue for the power amps.
It sounded okay but not great. Bass lines were a little diffuse, woolly, too prominent and slow. High pitch notes were a bit relentless/tiring. Time to re-calibrate.
Another 2dB of correction for each speaker, so -7dB on the left and -5dB on the right. Try again. A considerable improvement but not quite there. Still a bit slow, woolly and diffuse but not as dominant.
Move the speakers closer to the wall, so the rear face of the speakers were 20cm from the back wall. Recalibrate using www.lanspeaker.com to 20cm, as this adapts the time delay between the front drive units and the rear-firing bass drivers - the time delay varies with distance from the back wall. Try again. Better. Bass lines much more solid and better timed. No longer too prominent but clearly deeper and with stronger transient attack than the ARTs can manage with the NAP135s driving them.
We really, really wanted this set up to work, not least because we were effectively streaming without the need to buy an expensive streamer. Just server to RME to speakers. However, basslines were still a bit woolly and the top end too relentless/tiring. All the notes and power but none of the music.
So we switched the 8C from analogue mode to digital mode, despite being assured that both the RME’s and 8C’s converters measured impeccably and that it could not possibly make a difference. Well, it did to us. First, the bass. Holy Mackerel that sounded better. Not just better but awesomely good. True, pistonic, powerful, deep, tuneful bass like we haven’t heard before, even in other active high end systems. Music simply timed better, the speakers started to sound like one coherent system rather than having a separate bass line. Top end still a bit fierce though.
Next, we inserted one of the new Sonore OpticalRendu units in to act as the Roon end point. The Prestige 3 server was then acting only as Roon Core, feeding output via ethernet to the Cisco 2960 switch, out via optical SFP module and OM1 cable to the OpticalRendu, with USB to the RME unit. In this configuration, the RME unit acts as digital volume control and feeds a digital music signal to the speakers, so the whole streaming music chain is digital. The ADCs in both the RME unit and the speakers are bypassed.
And the difference? There should be no difference at all. But there was. Cheshire Cat like grins appeared on listeners’ faces within the first 5 notes of the first song. Oohh, that’s better. Can we leave it like this please? Can we play more and more music? Everything snapped into place and sounded addictively musical. The depth, speed, power and tunefulness of bass lines that underpin all music was phenomenal. So much better than we have ever heard at home. Singers’ voices at last were naturally clear and the top end was now sweet and detailed without being strident or harsh. Spacial imaging was okay but not special, certainly not comparable to that achieved by the ARTs, yet this was outweighed by other aspects of excellence for us. YMMV.
So, on the basis of streamed music, we would replace all the Naim amplifiers (and we are talking serviced NAC52 & NAP135s) and ART speakers, buy the 8Cs, avoid the need to buy a streamer and save a small fortune. That has to give pause for thought for Naim.
More to follow…
With streamed music sounding so good with the 8Cs in digital mode, time to try the turntable. No changes are required in the set up of the 8C speakers, as the RME takes the analogue signal from the phono stage and converts it to digital and sets the desired volume level, before sending it to the speakers in the digital domain.
So a change of input mode on the RME from “USB” to “Pre” and spin a record on the Vertere turntable. It worked straight away, first note. And all the subsequent notes too. Yet it sounded dull, flat and lifeless. Even after trying every tweak that we could think of, music never sprang to life from vinyl. “Matter of fact” was the best we could manage.
After hearing how musical the speakers could sound, I suspect that responsibility lies with the RME unit, despite its exemplary measured performance. This was not going to work for us.
Time for a deep breath and a switch back to streaming while an order was placed for some Supercap to active speaker interconnects.
… A few days later … the 5m long analogue interconnects arrive and the whole system is rewired to bypass the RME unit, revert the speakers to analogue mode, with everything controlled by the NAC52.
Play first record. Better, very much better. Deeper, punchier, more tuneful bass lines than the 135/ART combination can manage. Sheer resolution, life and vitality of music not too far behind the 135/ART combination either.
As we don’t have a posh streamer to play through the NAC52 at this point, it remains an open question as to how well that would sound through the NAC52 with the 8C in analogue mode.
So, to findings at this point:
If we only streamed music, we would sell our treasured Naim amplifiers and fabulous ART Alnico speakers and avoid the need to buy an ND555 streamer. That’s quite a remarkable finding for us.
The RME unit doesn’t work for us. It may measure superbly but our ears tell us something else. It runs really quite warm/hot, so much so that I considered lifting it off the Quadraspire shelf. It also lacks remote control and we couldn’t work out how to turn off that distractingly glaring display.
For replay of vinyl, the NAC52 easily betters the RME unit. And we like our vinyl.
So for now, we are going to keep the current system and decide on a streamer.
If/when Dutch & Dutch bring out their own control unit to replace the RME (or MiniDSP equivalent), and they also launch the software to control each speaker directly over the network via Roon, then we may reconsider. But the bass quality of the 8C is going to haunt us for quite some time to come…
If you have tried the 8C, we would love to learn of your experience with them.
Best regards, BF
Surely the rendu in this case is the streamer?
Hi CrystalGipsy,
When the speakers are in digital mode then the Rendu is the Roon end point which controls the flow of digits to the speakers’ internal dacs. Perhaps that makes it a streamer? I thought a streamer was supposed to have a dac in it, i.e.
streamer = renderer + dac
I’m not 100% clear on all the definitions & boundaries between stages, so you may be able to explain it better.
However, for us, the speakers have to be in analogue mode to sound acceptable with the turntable. So we would need either a dac to go with the Rendu or a separate streamer (e.g. ND555) to go between the server and the NAC52.
I trust that this makes sense, even if my terminology is slightly off.
Best regards, BF
It’s a streamer, it does not necessarily need a DAC in it. Its streaming audio to the DAC or amplifier via network. That’s what a streamer does.
Also perhaps consider PS Audio Nuwave phono stage for the turntable.
After an extended look into the world of high end streaming to replace the CDS3/555PS, the auditions are finally drawing to a close.
This streaming business involves too many decisions, many more than playing cds or even setting up a turntable rig. Not only are there too many individual items to decide on but there is no definitive system architecture to go with either.
For control software, we decided fairly early on to go for Roon. We like the way it displays all the album, artist and song information, the integration of Tidal is absolutely wonderful, multi-room has been a breeze to set up. We haven’t even started to play with the DSP engine, as it sounds better with the DSP engine switched off unless and until we dial in full room correction settings for the 31.5Hz room mode that we have.
We learned that the control software does affect sound quality, as the Moon streamer always sounded better when run with Moon’s Mind software than with Roon. It was only a small difference but it was always there.
Selecting Roon as the streaming interface promptly narrowed down the hardware choices. Out went both the Naim Core and Melco’s excellent servers, as neither can run Roon Core.
That left Innuos, Antipodes and Audiostore/Vortexbox/Small Green Computer as the main contenders. The Innuos Zenith mk 3 is a brilliant device that does it all. Antipodes means 2 boxes (the CX + separate EX to do it properly with Roon) and is a lot more expensive. We were swayed towards the The Audiostore Prestige 3 (or it’s sibling SonicTransporter equivalent) by several factors: Audiostore is UK based, Martin Smith (the owner of Audiostore) has been incredibly helpful, the Prestige 3 can readily run from a linear power supply and is half the price of the Innuos equivalent for no apparent loss of sound quality (given suitable efforts to knock out RFI). So we selected a fairly high spec (XL) Prestige 3 server and run it from an HDPLEX200 linear power supply that also powers 2 other items in the system.
More to follow…
I had some dealings with Martin before I decided to go DiY and Roon ROCK. He was very helpful indeed. I had been using Vortexbox OS software for years and was pleased with it and it’s ripping was great.
I have heard that Roon gives best results when the box that is the Roon Core is not the same box as the Roon endpoint.
Did you consider getting a Roon Core aimed at a Roon endpoint such as ND555 or similar?
Yes Jim, that is where it has ended up.
The Prestige server is the Roon Core and the streamer is the Roon end point. With the Chord option, a Sonore opticalRendu as the Roon end point that feeds the M Scaler. The OpticalRendu is connected to the Cisco switch via a fibre-optic ethernet connection. That was why I had no use for your DCS Network Bridge, excellent though it is.
Best regards, BF
Hi BF
What type of fibre-optic ethernet connection are you using?
Jim
Having decided on control software (Roon) and server (Audiostore Prestige 3), came the hardest part; what to put between the server’s USB or ethernet outputs and the DIN input of the NAC52.
I must have spent the best part of 4 months reading up on all the different architectures for doing this, including USB versus optical versus ethernet, how to tackle RFI, separating the dac from the renderer versus and all-in-one streamer, the pros & cons of posh cables etc. etc.
Then my brain exploded. I suddenly realised that I don’t want to know all this stuff. It’s the playing music that’s enjoyable. My wife was very happy to leave the researching part to me, wisely preferring to trust her ears instead.
Turning to a dealer for assistance confirmed that dealers who are true vinyl specialists may not necessarily have the interest to understand how to derive the best from streaming, so it was worth talking to several Naim dealers.
Many auditions later, here’s a fairly concise summary of our impressions:
Chord Qutest - dear me no. absolutely the worst timing dac we have heard. We prefer the DAC-V1. By far.
Chord Qutest + M Scaler - a revelation. All together better than a bare Qutest and almost times right. A little uncouth but reasonable value.
Chord DAVE - better still, timing almost there but not quite. Richer, fuller and more satisfying to enjoy than Qutest + M Scaler. You can hear where the extra money has gone. A bit artifical sounding and analytical for our taste.
DCS Bartok - the brand new all conquering £10k streamer. Absolutely not. Couldn’t keep time, even with £5,500 of external clock strapped to its front. Inoffensive and cultured would be a kinder summary.
DCS Rossini with latest V2 firmware upgrade - less bad than the Bartok. Still late though. All the notes, massive resolution, yet sterile and uninvolving.
Moon 780D v2 - built like a battleship and a joy to use. Sounds consistently better with the Moon Mind app than with Roon. Good but not quite up there musically with the CDS3/555PSDR, so no.
Naim ND555 with 1 555PSDR - at last, a streamer than can tell the time and maintain a rhythm. This one can carry a tune and make it sound like music.
MSB Discrete as streamer - ooh, lovely. Smooth, articulate, times well and thoroughly musical. Slightly warmer, smoother and friendlier than the Chord combo but rounds off transients slightly in comparison. If we had speakers with a bright top end (i.e. Kudos), this could well have been our final choice. However, the ART speakers help to tame the Chord combo’s top end a bit.
Chord DAVE + M Scaler - Oh, that’s a lot better. Seems to handle the leading edge of transients better than the ND555. Dynamic range, resolution and sense of scale betters the ND555. Imaging, sense of life and vitality in the music both better the ND555. Top end potentially a bit fierce with speakers that highlight high frequencies (Kudos, Focal, perhaps?)
DCS Rossini + external clock. Damn but that sounds good. So it takes £5.5k of clock to get the Rossini to tell the time. This combination takes everything that the ND555, Chord Dave & M Scaler do well and equals or betters the best elements of them. The first streaming front end that sounds to us like pure music rather than great hifi. Like being in a place rather than seeing an excellent photograph of the place. But it costs £22k in the UK.
MSB Premier with Powerbase. We died and went to heaven whenever we listened to music through this streamer. It’s simply gorgeous to listen to. The only one that bettered the Rossini + clock, which it did by quite some margin. Delicious but with a price to match.
An honorable mention should go to the Dutch & Dutch 8C active speaker system. We think that it is brilliant and is a beacon to highlight the future direction of music in the home. If we only streamed music, this might well have been the one. Its ability to provide the in-room frequency response that you would like is remarkable, as is the quality and quantity of deep bass. At the moment though, it needs a high quality control box to select inputs, control volume and manage a mix of analogue & digital sources. As we love our vinyl when played on the Vertere turntable, the 8C was ruled out.
In the end, it came down to the Chord combo or the MSB Discrete. The more expensive DCS and MSB options were just over our budget, despite sounding tremendously tempting.
There seems to be something about the reconstruction filter method employed by Chord that breathes better timing and dynamic range into transients, in other words, music sounds more alive, dynamic, real and emotionally captivating. It doesn’t seem to matter whether it’s pop, rock, folk or a full orchestral classical piece.
So we are going with DAVE + M Scaler, having separated the Roon end point from the server by means of a Sonore OpticalRendu.
May your journey of discovery be as interesting, educational and enjoyable as ours has been.
Best regards, BF
Sorry Jim, I don’t understand the question.
If it helps, it is an OM1 Multimode Duplex Fiber Optic Cable (62.5/125) - LC to LC and cost about £15 for a 3 metre length. There are no zeros missing from the price.
No doubt Audioquest, Transparent or Chord Cables will add a couple of zeros at some point!
Best regards, BF
Good news - I’ve enjoyed reading your musings on this and it sounds like you’ve reached a fine conclusion.
Enjoy your new setup
Bluesfan, do you think the hierarchy you found here can change with the pre you use? You have mostly compared all these streamers with your nac 52 or also nac 552?