Surely the rendu in this case is the streamer?
Hi CrystalGipsy,
When the speakers are in digital mode then the Rendu is the Roon end point which controls the flow of digits to the speakersā internal dacs. Perhaps that makes it a streamer? I thought a streamer was supposed to have a dac in it, i.e.
streamer = renderer + dac
Iām not 100% clear on all the definitions & boundaries between stages, so you may be able to explain it better.
However, for us, the speakers have to be in analogue mode to sound acceptable with the turntable. So we would need either a dac to go with the Rendu or a separate streamer (e.g. ND555) to go between the server and the NAC52.
I trust that this makes sense, even if my terminology is slightly off.
Best regards, BF
Itās a streamer, it does not necessarily need a DAC in it. Its streaming audio to the DAC or amplifier via network. Thatās what a streamer does.
Also perhaps consider PS Audio Nuwave phono stage for the turntable.
After an extended look into the world of high end streaming to replace the CDS3/555PS, the auditions are finally drawing to a close.
This streaming business involves too many decisions, many more than playing cds or even setting up a turntable rig. Not only are there too many individual items to decide on but there is no definitive system architecture to go with either.
For control software, we decided fairly early on to go for Roon. We like the way it displays all the album, artist and song information, the integration of Tidal is absolutely wonderful, multi-room has been a breeze to set up. We havenāt even started to play with the DSP engine, as it sounds better with the DSP engine switched off unless and until we dial in full room correction settings for the 31.5Hz room mode that we have.
We learned that the control software does affect sound quality, as the Moon streamer always sounded better when run with Moonās Mind software than with Roon. It was only a small difference but it was always there.
Selecting Roon as the streaming interface promptly narrowed down the hardware choices. Out went both the Naim Core and Melcoās excellent servers, as neither can run Roon Core.
That left Innuos, Antipodes and Audiostore/Vortexbox/Small Green Computer as the main contenders. The Innuos Zenith mk 3 is a brilliant device that does it all. Antipodes means 2 boxes (the CX + separate EX to do it properly with Roon) and is a lot more expensive. We were swayed towards the The Audiostore Prestige 3 (or itās sibling SonicTransporter equivalent) by several factors: Audiostore is UK based, Martin Smith (the owner of Audiostore) has been incredibly helpful, the Prestige 3 can readily run from a linear power supply and is half the price of the Innuos equivalent for no apparent loss of sound quality (given suitable efforts to knock out RFI). So we selected a fairly high spec (XL) Prestige 3 server and run it from an HDPLEX200 linear power supply that also powers 2 other items in the system.
More to followā¦
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I had some dealings with Martin before I decided to go DiY and Roon ROCK. He was very helpful indeed. I had been using Vortexbox OS software for years and was pleased with it and itās ripping was great.
I have heard that Roon gives best results when the box that is the Roon Core is not the same box as the Roon endpoint.
Did you consider getting a Roon Core aimed at a Roon endpoint such as ND555 or similar?
Yes Jim, that is where it has ended up.
The Prestige server is the Roon Core and the streamer is the Roon end point. With the Chord option, a Sonore opticalRendu as the Roon end point that feeds the M Scaler. The OpticalRendu is connected to the Cisco switch via a fibre-optic ethernet connection. That was why I had no use for your DCS Network Bridge, excellent though it is.
Best regards, BF
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Hi BF
What type of fibre-optic ethernet connection are you using?
Jim
Having decided on control software (Roon) and server (Audiostore Prestige 3), came the hardest part; what to put between the serverās USB or ethernet outputs and the DIN input of the NAC52.
I must have spent the best part of 4 months reading up on all the different architectures for doing this, including USB versus optical versus ethernet, how to tackle RFI, separating the dac from the renderer versus and all-in-one streamer, the pros & cons of posh cables etc. etc.
Then my brain exploded. I suddenly realised that I donāt want to know all this stuff. Itās the playing music thatās enjoyable. My wife was very happy to leave the researching part to me, wisely preferring to trust her ears instead.
Turning to a dealer for assistance confirmed that dealers who are true vinyl specialists may not necessarily have the interest to understand how to derive the best from streaming, so it was worth talking to several Naim dealers.
Many auditions later, hereās a fairly concise summary of our impressions:
-
Chord Qutest - dear me no. absolutely the worst timing dac we have heard. We prefer the DAC-V1. By far.
-
Chord Qutest + M Scaler - a revelation. All together better than a bare Qutest and almost times right. A little uncouth but reasonable value.
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Chord DAVE - better still, timing almost there but not quite. Richer, fuller and more satisfying to enjoy than Qutest + M Scaler. You can hear where the extra money has gone. A bit artifical sounding and analytical for our taste.
-
DCS Bartok - the brand new all conquering Ā£10k streamer. Absolutely not. Couldnāt keep time, even with Ā£5,500 of external clock strapped to its front. Inoffensive and cultured would be a kinder summary.
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DCS Rossini with latest V2 firmware upgrade - less bad than the Bartok. Still late though. All the notes, massive resolution, yet sterile and uninvolving.
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Moon 780D v2 - built like a battleship and a joy to use. Sounds consistently better with the Moon Mind app than with Roon. Good but not quite up there musically with the CDS3/555PSDR, so no.
-
Naim ND555 with 1 555PSDR - at last, a streamer than can tell the time and maintain a rhythm. This one can carry a tune and make it sound like music.
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MSB Discrete as streamer - ooh, lovely. Smooth, articulate, times well and thoroughly musical. Slightly warmer, smoother and friendlier than the Chord combo but rounds off transients slightly in comparison. If we had speakers with a bright top end (i.e. Kudos), this could well have been our final choice. However, the ART speakers help to tame the Chord comboās top end a bit.
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Chord DAVE + M Scaler - Oh, thatās a lot better. Seems to handle the leading edge of transients better than the ND555. Dynamic range, resolution and sense of scale betters the ND555. Imaging, sense of life and vitality in the music both better the ND555. Top end potentially a bit fierce with speakers that highlight high frequencies (Kudos, Focal, perhaps?)
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DCS Rossini + external clock. Damn but that sounds good. So it takes Ā£5.5k of clock to get the Rossini to tell the time. This combination takes everything that the ND555, Chord Dave & M Scaler do well and equals or betters the best elements of them. The first streaming front end that sounds to us like pure music rather than great hifi. Like being in a place rather than seeing an excellent photograph of the place. But it costs Ā£22k in the UK.
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MSB Premier with Powerbase. We died and went to heaven whenever we listened to music through this streamer. Itās simply gorgeous to listen to. The only one that bettered the Rossini + clock, which it did by quite some margin. Delicious but with a price to match.
An honorable mention should go to the Dutch & Dutch 8C active speaker system. We think that it is brilliant and is a beacon to highlight the future direction of music in the home. If we only streamed music, this might well have been the one. Its ability to provide the in-room frequency response that you would like is remarkable, as is the quality and quantity of deep bass. At the moment though, it needs a high quality control box to select inputs, control volume and manage a mix of analogue & digital sources. As we love our vinyl when played on the Vertere turntable, the 8C was ruled out.
In the end, it came down to the Chord combo or the MSB Discrete. The more expensive DCS and MSB options were just over our budget, despite sounding tremendously tempting.
There seems to be something about the reconstruction filter method employed by Chord that breathes better timing and dynamic range into transients, in other words, music sounds more alive, dynamic, real and emotionally captivating. It doesnāt seem to matter whether itās pop, rock, folk or a full orchestral classical piece.
So we are going with DAVE + M Scaler, having separated the Roon end point from the server by means of a Sonore OpticalRendu.
May your journey of discovery be as interesting, educational and enjoyable as ours has been.
Best regards, BF
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Sorry Jim, I donāt understand the question.
If it helps, it is an OM1 Multimode Duplex Fiber Optic Cable (62.5/125) - LC to LC and cost about Ā£15 for a 3 metre length. There are no zeros missing from the price.
No doubt Audioquest, Transparent or Chord Cables will add a couple of zeros at some point!
Best regards, BF
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Good news - Iāve enjoyed reading your musings on this and it sounds like youāve reached a fine conclusion.
Enjoy your new setup 
Bluesfan, do you think the hierarchy you found here can change with the pre you use? You have mostly compared all these streamers with your nac 52 or also nac 552?
I have used both NAC52/135 and 552/300 amplifiers during the various auditions.
Some have used both and the findings have been consistent.
Best regards, BF
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I admire your tenacity. I thought last night night listening to my NDX2 with the new XPS DR that the addition of the PS tighten the famous Naim timing a notch, which was an unexpected bonus.
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Roons CTO has described this as a design decision. Core, controller and endpoint should each run on separate boxes to secure best SQ. And core should be put in another room.
He adde core and enpoint was best wired while controller could be wifi.
This was on Roon forum.
Thanks Jan.
Yes, so the rumours were true.
Iāve never heard Roon in action.
I can imagine that if I am ever lucky enough to retire from full time work in the Dark Satanic Mills of academia then I may have various hours to kill each day, and could enjoy playing with a complex and heavy beast like Roon in my house.
At the moment, though, Iām in the lovely honeymoon phase of pure simplicity where the Naim app plus 272 and 555dr and 150x is all I have.
Click n play.
Like a true Luddite, with no smartphone in my life either, I ride my bike to work, and all I have to do is think of a musician or a track or a song or a tune or even a word to look up and Iām off exploring and discovering new stuff all the time.
Lovely.
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No way Iād swop it for a Chord Mescalero and dac!
Ones Iāve heard anywayā¦
Not crisp enough for my tasteā¦
Ok, if I was stuck on a desert island with a Chord system Iād be ok.
But deep down inside Iād be hankering after that Naim thingā¦the, ughhh
Seriously, though, BF - I worry about two elements of your strategy.
One is that you obviously want the amazing Premiere system you tried. And I know you will never really settle for using budget constraints as an excuse - you must have that DAC!
The other is concerning power supplies.
What does Chord have in that regard?
No need to worry Jim. Iāll be fine.
Thank you for your concern though.
Yours very happily enjoying Chord + Naim + ART,
BF
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Regarding the comparison - has the ND555 been tried with 2 x DR psu???