because i think it’s possible to make very high quality ps inside the box of a dac or preamp. They are a lot of examples to prove that: Kondo, Dartzeel, Ear Yoshino, Constellation, Aavik…
But i am not an engineer, not british, so difficult or not able to explain.
The why.
Yes, of course there are excellent psu sections built in to many hifi boxes, eg by the brands you mention.
I never said there weren’t.
All I asked was a simple question:
If you were designing a dac for best SQ would you put the psu in a box with it or in a different box?
It’s really not a complicated question.
I’m fact a one word answer will do it.
Inside?
Or out?
sorry to say, but your question is a bit nonsense. We just agreed that best components can have psu inside or outside. So both responses, yes and no, are valid.
Ok FR I knew I would not be able to pin you down…
A demain
you were joking, “ tu m’as fait marcher “. Tomorrow you will translate that for me and understand what i said.
If it were me, I’d go for a battery supply to enable complete isolation from mains and anything borne on it. Mains would be a charger, external box, to be connected when not playing music.
But then, I am not an expert designer, and don’t know how to design in such a way as to ensure no “pollution” as you put it, and my way is easier.
i don’t know if it’s really true but battery ps have pro : very low noise floor but also coins: a bit limited dynamics or involvement.
From my O level French (40 years ago) it means literally ’you made me walk’
Or colloquially ‘you had me going there for a minute’
Or ‘you led me on’.
Yes, m’lud, I was indeed leading the witness.
Good answer.
I forgot to add into the question that the dac had to be fed by mains!
As far as I know the main reason for separates in hifi is electrical isolation of the components that are most negatively effected by electrical noise or pollution (e.g. dacs) from the components that create the most electrical noise (e.g. psus).
Indeed - but that does not mean that design cannot do in a different way from separate boxes. And the concept of box is misguided - as Naim, with their normal separate box approach, show with the Statement preamp which has the power supply in the same box. Internal boxes are used in many products for magnetic screening of the PS.
My answer to the imposed permanent connection to the mains is evident in my last response - and with the qualification I applied.
I would rather argue that the Naim classic series and above do indeed offer cost-effective solutions, in particular w.r.t. amplification. Where I do see redundancies and, finally, deficiencies in terms of cost-effectiveness and usability, is in Naim servers and streamers: here I would prefer to see less integrated and more modular products like pure transports, modern DACs without ethernet inputs, servers that support internet radio and streaming services, etc. Just my two cents, of course!
electrical isolation of the components that are most negatively effected by electrical noise or pollution
And, or maybe more so, (electro)magnetic isolation. And not just power supplies, but large voltages and currents in power amps vs very low level signal inputs for analogue preamps, especially phono inputs - hence separating ore and power amp.
I find your arguments a bit odd considering that you have a 272, with streamer, DAC, pre- and power-amps all in one box, even if you have disconnected the internal PS to get that away from the very crammed contents. (This is not saying the 272 doesn’t do very well for what it is.)
You make some reasonable points here, but what you are suggesting would mean a radical change to the way Naim do streaming, which is not going to happen, because Naim firmly believe their streaming solutions are the best on sonic grounds. The redundancy in Naim streamers and servers is mostly down to the fast development in the digital streaming domain, rather than fundamental flaws in Naim’s design/philosophy/implementation. I refer to UnitiServe -> Core, old Uniti -> new Uniti ranges, ND…s -> ND…2s/ND555.
Having said this I still have my UnitiServe, which is now proving to be reliable, and I traded in my NDS for a ND555. So I think Naim and their dealer network do a reasonable job of maintaining legacy products and ‘recycling’ in the face of rapid technological and implementation change in the digital domain. There will of course be more changes to their streamers as the old DAC chips run out and they discover the new ‘DAC chip on the block’.
Exciting times.
272, with streamer, DAC, pre- and power-amps all in one box
The 272 doesn’t have a power amp in it.
I’d go for a battery supply to enable complete isolation from mains and anything borne on it.
But how large would the array of batteries need to be to, say, produce a battery-powered 555PSDR equivalent solution?
Internal boxes are used in many products for magnetic screening of the PS.
Internal boxes are used in many products.
IIRC, e.g. the Hegel top amp includes DAC, pre and power - and they put walls of thick metal plate in to try to contain the EM noise between sections.
Similiarly, the Denafrips Terminator has a thick metal plate between 2 torroidal transformers below and the sensitive DAC arryas above.
But these designs are a compromise.
Other things being equal, a well designed hifi component will sound better if you can remove the power supply.
But of course that costs more, has worse environmental impact, takes more rack shelves and needs more cables.
The 272 doesn’t have a power amp in it.
Whoops, no of course it doesn’t - my error in haste responding - but it is still a crammed box with a lot in it…
But how large would the array of batteries need to be to, say, produce a battery-powered 555PSDR equivalent solution?
Wrong thinking! How large would a battery array need to be to power either the ND555, or the NDS, or the NDX2 etc. The same question and principle could be applied to preamps - but I wouldn’t dream of powering a power amp with batteries! (Actually not true - as dreaming shows me it as an application for re-use of electric car batteries once their capacity falls below the design limits for car use, of course charged by a photovoltaic cell array…)
As an example, NDX2 power consumption is quoted as ~19W, so, plucking something out of the air, if it used a 12V supply, a 12V 20AH battery would power it for 12 hours of play. Probably not 12V, and possibly not a simply single supply voltage, but it gives an idea of size: by no means ridiculous.
But these designs are a compromise.
Other things being equal, a well designed hifi component will sound better if you can remove the power supply.
You say that, but it is by no means a certainty that the best designs WILL sound better with the power supply removed,despite your evident belief - though I readily agree that it is easier to achieve electromagnetic isolation with a box around the PS and another around the circuitry, and maximised physical distance between them: but that does not mean that the degree of isolation that can be achieved with the best physical design, and the best electronic design, is such that ther ewill be any audible difference if the two parts were to be moved into two separate boxes.
By you own argument, you believe that that the Statement preamp would sound better if the power supply was in a separate box - do you not think that Naim assessed that and concluded that the way they have built it cannot be bettered? After all, it is said to be absolutely no compromise, the very best that it is possible for them to make!
Of course I would never claim that splitting out the PSU will definitely make an audible improvement to a particular item.
That depends on far too many variables to be the case.
If implemented badly it could surely sound worse - e.g. if it’s done in a way that the cabling linking the 2 boxes channels even more noise into the DAC anyway.
All only claim a general rule that other things being equal (inc. implementation) then it is likely to sound better as a major source of EM noise and some mechanical vibration has been removed/hived off.