Thanks SB, that’s good to know. The more recent Bryston cubed amps are supposed to be even better, though I’m sure yours sounds great.
Talking to dealers now about b4b and 300 DR. Both considered great amps to drive the Facts. One says the Fact 12s were voiced with Bryston and there is synergy between the brands. On the other hand we know the Naim front end and 300 DR match perfectly. Driving 100s of miles around uk to demo is off the cards, in any case may not be able to demo Fact 12s with these amps, and wouldn’t know how they would sound in my room with my front end, so the decision will be blind. I’m sure either will be very good, both open, relaxed, not too forward style, should be great match in theory. Going to write to PMC, maybe they can offer an opinion.
With Fact 12s and either 300 or the Bryston, your front end really is lacking. You are building the system the wrong way round in my view. I’d take a breath, sort out your amplification and then see if you need a speaker change. Fixating on expensive speakers because they are cheap, and then getting the electronics to match, is rarely a successful approach. Your existing speakers will sound twice the size on the end of a 300. I feel I’m wasting my time though.
I suspect you are right about PMC, it will be interesting to see how objective their response is.
Point taken about the front end. To quote a past comedian, I’m playing the right notes in the wrong order. Nonetheless, it will be interesting to hear how the Facts sound with the NAP200, then with better amplification. In all likelihood I’ll upgrade the front end at some point. Plenty of used NDX2 kicking about, though I expect Naim will have something even better by then, as the target seems to be constantly moving.
I am supporting the HungryHalibut’s view. The Fact12 is a big speaker bass wise for a room of 6m long, the room fundamental is 55Hz. I recommend demoing the speakers in a room of the same size, or better still, demo them at home before committing.
The logic is undeniable, but a demo is nigh impossible. Also read that the Fact 12s are ‘unforgiving’, consistent with what others have been saying, that they are OTT in my system. Concerning in a bright, ‘unforgiving’ room, and a lot of wedge at stake.
I think I’m going back to plan A, upgrade the amp to a 250 DR, 300 DR or a Bryston, see how it goes. The 4b3 is still in the reckoning, all reviews are glowing, transparency, grip, power to drive inefficient speakers, superb bass, I don’t think you can go wrong. My nap 200 definitely gets flustered and harsh when cranked up, 300 wpc of beast must sound ace by comparison. But used 4b3s seem expensive and Naim is more of a known quantity in uk. Maybe if I can find one for the right price.
In due course in the search for more bass and roundness, still contemplating changing the speakers - PMC 20.26 should beef up the bass, and more forgiving, warmer, than Facts, albeit at the expense of some accuracy loss. Half the price, less at stake. Or also too big for the room?
That is suggesting that any speaker that plays undiminished down to 55Hz is a problem in a room of that length, meanwhile the octave (and more) below that, playable fully by the Fact 12.
By that measure any speaker going down undiminished below 50Hz is too much for the room, and people who like to hear and feel true bass will have to live in rooms with dimensions of at least 50ft - which would indeed be good for music, but 20ft is quite a large room dimension, at least in Britain. The answer is judicious speaker and listener placement, possibly with room treatment if that doesn’t resolve any issues (depending on the room and contents)
But there is different music, where the same notes in a different order can sound more beautiful! Source first is one approach. Getting the speakers right for the listener is another. The first way you can later improve the speakers to make sound perfect, and the second way vice versa - the question is what satisfies you in the meantime. You haveto decide for yourself what suits and works for you.
We kinda had same experience with SuperUniti, also 70W amp. Fine at TV/easy listening levels, unable to rock our 4 ohm speakers.
250DR was a sea change, a proper dedicated amp and gained huge control over the speakers. Much better clarity, bass control.
300DR, although broadly similar to 250DR technically, performs differently again. Far better bass control, keeps great separation of musical strands at volume.
All 3 amps are similar in “watts” but that’s all they have in common.
300DR at discontinued pricing should be a very attractive option. Lightly used options abound.
Thanks IB. I agree there are different routes to the same ultimate destination.
Room acoustics are complex, I need to gen up. My room is actually L-shaped, the 5.5 x 4.5 listening area is on the short side of the L, the long part (was a dining area at one time) is to the left. I played with some room acoustic models for a few minutes, the natural resonance pattern is complex, due to various resonance modes along length, width, height etc. Without factoring in the dining room, the lowest frequency is closer to 30 than 55 Hz - I imagine the dining room would tend to lower this further. Even big speakers with very low freq bass tend to roll off considerably below 50 Hz, so I wonder that resonance in my room is an issue in practice with all but the largest speakers. Fact 12s have great bass extension, but roll off by -5 db at 30 Hz, and -10 db by 20 HZ (inaudible, but you could feel it) - with 30 Hz or below natural resonance freq, I’d have thought that works, in theory. I was more concerned about them being ‘unforgiving’, ie harsh in upper frequencies - also a known tendency in the twenty-I range, which use a similar (same?) 19 mm tweeter. A great feature of Fact 12s, reported to work well, is adjustable HF (+/-1) and LF by (-1 or -2) - to an extent they can be tuned to the room. Maybe I was too hasty. I’m going to talk to the dealer before I p1ss or get off the pot.
Suspect both 300DR and Bryson deserve top sources/pre.
Was not aware of the Bryston, but it looks very capable and is well reviewed.
We’ve not auditioned any other make of amp since we started naim journey. SWMBO is keen on clean aesthetics in the lounge, 7 classic boxes gets a pass.
When I had my 272 I added a 555PSDR before the 300 DR. It was just a great combination. I’m not convinced that a 272/XPS is good enough for a 300.
When we then consider the Fact 12s, it’s worth reflecting on what others use them with. One forum member uses a 500 series front end, a Statement preamp and a NAP500. A 272 really isn’t up to the job.
Unless a 555 is an option for the 272 I wouldn’t go beyond a 250DR. Even that would be transformational for the PMC 23s and maybe all that’s needed, but if not, 24s or 26s should fit the bill, especially if they are the current twenty5i versions, which are a good step up from the original twenty series.
For sure, big flash speakers can be alluring, especially if they look like a bargain, but more modest ones driven well are much more likely to be successful. There is nothing worse than an underdriven speaker, which is about as engaging as a wet lettuce. But in mulletland, these things clearly don’t matter.
I’ll upgrade the amp next. Reading other threads, fortunes spent on twinned 300s, 350s, 500s, statement front ends. The mind boggles. Not going there. Therefore it seems extra power won’t go amiss in the long run, and as selling gear on is pain and erodes value, procuring it at the outset makes sense (if a 300 DR wasn’t 2x price of a 250 DR, or a Bryston 4b3 £5k, it would be less painful). I’ll let you know what I decide, how I get on, it will obviously take a few weeks. Will be interesting to see how the 20.23s perform with better power.
Will see about speakers (driven by suitable amplification, of course) and source upgrades later.
Bryston 4b3 w black fascia should match Naims pretty well (though needs space on all sides for natural convection cooling), one box vs 300 DR two. SWMBO should be reasonably happy.
I’m at 4 boxes, how did you get to 7?
Have you used Room Equalisation Wizard “REW”?
Before investing further cash in hifi for £130 you could buy a brand new UMIK1 microphone and download the free REW software to understand your rooms impact on frequency response, reverb, decay, clarity, etc.
When you do this with some tweaks your already good gear may mean no further investment required (well for the time being anyway).
Good luck.
Tapp - thx for the heads up on the REW software. Checked out REW website & video, gobsmacking how bad an untreated room is. Will look into this more, maybe get a mic, measure my room. I suspect it’s sonically awful, though HWMBO will not entertain any serious ‘room treatment’.
Iain - Wow, that’s a few quids worth! I bet it does sound fab! Is the 555 powering the NDX2?
I still find it amazing that Naim kit comes with no or ‘sub’- standard power supplies to preamps & streamers. The cost sure multiplies. Also the big beefy amps are sooo expensive. E.g 1 - PMC Cor integrated, great reviews, drives Fact 12 perfectly, avoids box count & cost multiplication - £5k. Eg2 Bryston b4b power 300 wpc, great reviews, £8k new £5k used vs Naim 500 £25 k. Makes you think. 250/300 DR seem relatively good value tho.
IB - found Fact 12 freq response in HiFiCritic review on PMC website. Not sure how measured, possibly anechoic chamber - response seems far too flat to be a normal room going by the REW vid. Bass extension amazing given drivers (2 per speaker) are only 140 mm. I don’t know if it is a room match …. room acoustics v complex subject, new to me, a lot to learn.
