Naim and wattage

According to its specification, my bass amp, Bryson 4Bsst, can supply 500w into my nominally 4ohm speakers.(specification-wise similar to a NAP300 peak capability). It has an indicator light that shows when it is starting to clip. If I play music very spiritedly, through my speakers with 89dB/W efficiency, it is surprising how readily the red light flashes on peaks, which tells me I could do with an amp capable of more peak power - and people do say that the next model up, 14B (or twin 7B), capable of 900w into 4 ohms is ideal for my speakers. One day, perhaps - though I’d be interested in comparing with a similarly powered digital amp such as from Devialet (and indeed with NAS 300 and 500).

It’s not just about watts, but about quality and system matching. The Harbeth 40 is an illustrious speaker and something like a 252/300 would be a sensible match. A Supernait is totally out of its depth. A classic case of the mullets. Of course, a top notch source is also essential to realise the potential of the speakers.

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IB, be careful about what that ‘clipping’ light actually means.

For analogue amps it can simply be that a fast transient has caused the output transistors to go full swing until the feedback loop and forward gain of the amp catches up to bring the output back down again. This condition can also result in brief lockup of the driver transistors meaning that the effective power output capability with real music and it’s unpredictable transients if far less than the RMS power with a 1kHz sinewave.

For Class D it could simply mean that for a transient, one of the power transistors stayed in the on state for more than a given number of cycles before the output integration caught up.

I admit I am only going by Bryston’s statement as to the indicator light, though once when I checked SPL in the room it it did approximately tally based on the declared speaker sensitivity (using an uncalibrated iPhone meter, app picked as one giving readings that generally tied up with expectation).

The way I see it, wattage is not that important but the size of the power supply is. The weight of a linear amplifier (no matter the brand) will tell a lot about it’s capacity to drive loudspeakers.

It’s a bit like a heavy car needs an engine with a lot of torque to move easily at low revs, not HP.

Hi.

Personally, initially I had the same feeling in my 45 m2 and 145 m3 room with the SN2 and K6…, until the system, and especially the integrated, was settling down and I went fine tuning and tweking it…

On the SN2 I can say that its 130W in 4 Ohms and its power supply delivery are better than the 420W in 4 Ohms and the power delivery of my previous Exposure 3010S2 combo, insufferable with the K6; and no point of comparison in terms of bass control. Then, it shouldn’t just be a matter of power, because the power without control…

The reviews and tests that were done at the time, and I have been able to read, on the SN, are quite coincidental in its bass deficiency, especially its lack of control of the bass frequencies. This was completely remedied with SN2, and with SN3 it appears to have been further improved. I will personally experience it shortly, because I am waiting for a SN3 new brand unit after the shocked and strange fault from my SN2 unit (I hope it will finally arrive this week, and be able to have it all in place next week); but I don’t find any lack of bass control problems with SN2 into K6, and they should certainly get even better on SN3. Actually, until well past 90 dB, almost 95 dB, just wonderful, no mullet, as some point from a distance. I have not worn it louder, because really there are already many decibels and I find it annoying; besides, you know, excess power without clipping is usually paid dearly, both in terms of burnt woofer coils and, worse, in chronic deafness, which with youth is not appreciated, but over time you usually miss the second chance…

That said, with the specifications on paper, there does not seem to be as much difference between H 40.1 and K6, as the lower sensitivity of the former is fairly compensated by their higher impedance and, consequently, less need for power supply delibery.

It seems that Hegel makes good devices, although it also seems that his after-sales service leaves much to be desired, it is quite distressing, to put it mildly. To my taste, a point too cold and analytical, and not as musical as Naim; although, beyond its musical characteristics, it was his defihic after-sales service that deterred me from the brand. Since the failure with the SN2, no problem and direct change by a new brand unit of SN3, though, yes, still waiting for the new unit… Would it have been the same with Hegel…? I don’t know, but judging from the experiences out there, probably not.

If I were in your shoes, I think I’d try to test the SN3 with those speakers; it’ll probably surprise you. Although unable to demo it, I might think of ATC SIA2-150 or, better, McIntosh, the MA6700 is not far away in price target, and it seems it’s a real marvel with your speakers.

Anyway, cheer and luck.

So is it definite that if moving from a Supernait 1 to say NAP200DR+NAC202 I would get more control of difficult to drive speakers on medium to high volume even though NAP200DR states 2x70W as my SN1 or is it more a step sideways if that is my main concern?

I think it would be a sideways move. Do you have a HiCAP with the SN1? If not, add that, or upgrade to the SN3.

Buy a Statement, then you will have plenty of watts to play with.

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My non technical understanding is…
Naim are very particular with the power supplies … regulation is always quite inefficient - so usually Naim put very beefy transformers in to ensure the pre regulated wave form is stout - then regulate that. This means the amplifier board is less constrained with what it can draw instantaneously. Simples … so a very well supplied 25w amp would actually sould really quite powerful … I forget the maths now but I think it would take around 200w to double the max volume relative to average speaker efficiency … so when they make an 80w amp with a very large transformer - its going to flippin well sound powerful …from memory the old Krell KSA 50 proved this point rather well…:grin:

Naim Watts are no doubt unique amongst watts. Accounts for their need to be serviced every 10 years, others can go 30 years + without.

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A speaker that is efficient, say 90db +, but still drops down to low ohms at a given frequency - means you are very likely to hear more the amps grip at this frequency than a less efficient speaker.

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If you believe that RMS power output is what controls quality, you can get this for £160.

I moved away from Naim power amps donkey years ago. I found that Krell delivered a far more satisfying experience. I still use Naim pre amps and cd source. But the Krell power amps certainly drive speakers more satisfyingly.

The OP might well try other power amps and form his own conclusion.

Don, purely out of curiosity :wink:, what, to you, constitutes a “far more satisfying experience” in this context, and which Krell(s) vs which Naim(s)?

Realism.

It generates a better facimile of a live perormance eg with a symphony orchestra and even a rock concert where the “live” performance includes electronically amplified voices and instruments.

And on music that I haven’t heard live, (which obviously is quite a lot) the Krell delivers what to me sounds like a a more realistic frequency response. Naim appears to substantially loose the power and drive of the bass frequencies by comparison.

Otherwise, things like pace, rythm and timing, slew rate, tonal balance and a host of other descriptors, appear to be preserved whether the power amp is Krell or Naim. Probably due to the performance of the Naim pre-amp.

As with other contributors to the Forum, my “Use of English” is somewhat limited when describing hifi characteristics. And different people appear to ascribe different meanings to the same words.

Anyway, I hope that my descriptions above are helpful.

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Ah, the Naim amp was a 500 (non-DR) and the Krell a FBP 600

All based on equipment c.10 years ago.

According to Dan D’agostino he reckoned the Krell KSA50 50w Class A was the best sounding amp of the lot … I heard this many years ago and it did sound amazing - it appeared to have a vice like grip over the speaker…but was very musical in the process. It was also hideously hot and monstrously heavy.

Krell power amps may not be so reliable compared to Naim. A friend used to own the FPB300 power amp and experienced a leakage. He got it repaired at a huge cost and sold it off. Having said that, the exemplary bass power of the Krell cannot be denied though.

The original Mark Levinson ML-2mono power amp was rated at 25 watts Class A, and in Australia sold for around $4000 each in the early (1973) 70’s here. My first job in hifi was in 1976, and we had four of these monsters (you could bridge them). on the sales floor. I had already realized watts weren’t everything having ditched my 120w Kenwood amp for a Spendor D40, but my very experienced boss sat me down and showed me some hifi truth. Do some Googling about these ground breaking amplifiers.

We also stocked Accuphase, Audio Research, Naim, Luxman and Stax amongst others. The 25 watt ML-2 was amazing. It was rock solid, drove anything including Quad and Stax ESLs, Magnapans, Gale 401’s and Isobariks. Nothing else got close to the feeling of weight and majesty these things conveyed.

I rapidly went up the ladder of Hifi, and by mid 1977 was the proud owner of tri-amped Isobariks, using 3 x NAP 250s. I was the proverbial kid in the toy shop, and spent over three times as much as I earned annually. If I had of had the money, (or a larger line of credit), a six pack of Levinsons would have been nice!

In subsequent years I heard the Krell KSA 50, the 8 watt Air Tight Valve, the Luxman Class A integrated, the list goes on. All of them impressive. All low wattage, huge weight, astronomical prices and really great power supplies.

An earlier poster mentioned the Krell KSA 50. This power amp had amazing weight, (of both the sonic and massy kind), and showed up a NAP 250 in some ways, one of which was sheer volume. When your Spinal Tap was urging you to number 11, the Krell was heaven. And it was more than just sheer power, it had a great sound. I could happily live with one right now, driving my 'umble S400s. It would probably do a overall better job than my NAP 200.

I have stayed pretty much Naim all my life, I know my bias. Musical involvement is what I crave. There are other products in this world which do a lot of things differently, and/or depending on your kink, better. Everyone has a product that will suit them. But if you focus on the watts only, you’ll never get it right.

I learned this lesson over 40 years ago, and have had it reconfirmed so many times it’s about my only hifi truth.

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