Sorry if I am misunderstanding but was there any adc going on in the demo? Digital amps (assuming you are talking about class d) do not convert analog to digital as a matter of course
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Glad it wasn’t just me who got lost in that post… a few non sequiturs embedded in it…
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But IIUC the example to which you referred was a digital amp, so a different implementation. And given the differences between different DACs, I’m unsure how you can extrapolate one or two experiences to different brands?
As for your reference to 99.5% of people not hearing things, based on a salesman, that is an odd statistical conclusion… For all I know you might be correct - and of course people with "cloth ears"are the lucky ones because they don’t need to fuss and spend fortunes on hifi.
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…
…
Been there and experienced THAT
I had returned a ‘five star’ rated amp back to the store, as it sounded like garbage to me.
I wanted to then know ‘how much would I have to spend to get something that didn’t sound ‘digital’ (/grainy etc). We jumped up three/four models in the lineup. Nope.
Trialed the best the store had… again; a ‘few seconds’- what is that, its’ like something is digitizing the sound… ?
Sales person acknowledged that the volume dial would be doing so as it wasn’t a regular volume pot (like the Naits’ use being “Alps”).
They said that MOST wouldn’t be able to hear the difference.
(and I was the only customer who had ever picked it)(don’t know about THAT!)
For me; I blame my previous experiences with a Sansui AU919 (my upgrade to a NAD 3020/Rotel power amp combo that biamped some beautiful custom made speakers, certainly the best I have ever heard)… having owned and used for very long time periods, and become accustomed to ‘that level of sound’; I don’t persevere with ‘junk audio’. (which is a title I throw around a lot).
It would easily be true… 1/200 people! That isn’t very impressive.
Heck Amir at ASR couldn’t pick low bitrate MP3s from the real deal (back when introduced to the ‘cutting edge’ of compression)- this stuff takes ear training and lots of time ‘listening’ to the electronics.
As someone who bought just about every consumer sound card they could get their grubby mits on, and ‘listened’ to the evolution of OPL / FM synthesis… the subtle differences in tonality and texture of the midi library was something that trained my ears to get ‘really picky’.
Being fortunate enough to own that Sansui AU919 (and even have it paired up with some Acoustic Research LSTs for a long time), I have trained my ears to pick apart these things.
My earlier post on this topic gave examples of when ADC/DAC conversion done right (at a high enough pricepoint perhaps) fooled me/left me wondering…
“suspension of disbelief” achieved…
I would say I am not a fan of such things due to my experience pointing that the MAJORITY of the time it ROBS life and precious musicality from the chain.
…
but there ARE times when it is done seamlessly.
1/200 people would be amazing if we had that many ‘trained’ ears,… my experience of people would place that number as far far smaller still.
Hence why audio stops being ‘scientific’ as soon as humans get involved.
the naysayers like to quote all the science that aligns with the 99.5% of people who are ‘deaf’ to basic stuff that absolutely has me sitting on the edge of my chair.
And MY ear training is PADAWAN status to a composer mate who pulls apart retrieval information that is just WAAAY over my head!.
The ‘norms’ have it though and that is why selling digital amps (after a world financial crisis where the manufacturers NEEDED to lower costs) is so attractive.
amps that need basically minimal heatsinking and ‘lower adoption/build costs’ are ‘the way’ (right now)… the standards body removed the need for power specifications to be sustained for any reasonable amount of time,… meaning that spec sheets on new equipment can look better whilst the parts are made considerably cheaper.
(needs to be a market)…
but consumers are mostly sheep and the blind lead the blind…
(and sites like ASR, and the ‘science dungeon’ at headfy do a huge disservice to the hobby by arguing against the few who actually care about the stuff that matters)
Would this impact my buying a Nova?
not at all.
But I wouldn’t go out of my way to buy an expensive top of the tree ladder DAC to feed into it.
Does the Nova feed ‘better’ audio out when given great audio IN?
Yes of course.
and I say this without hearing one,…but based on my experience with some Sennheiser wireless RS170 headphones.
They ADC the audio fed into them,… but using a much better DAC to feed them made a huge difference on the output sound quality.
If an observation regarding the Novas’ reselling frequently exists, who knows what data that is based on… statistics are a funny old game to play…
what rate of sales where the Novas in the ‘all in one’ lines.
Are they more premium, and hence bought by people with slightly more disposable cash, who can afford to sell on (rather than keep it for another room); or, due to being higher resell price,… is it at the threshold of Naim seperates (made in UK)… which might be where people with that money to play with start to wish they’d 'started…?
who knows…
but it is fair to say 99.5% of people likely fail basic audio tests that many on these threads would pass… so lets not say that 99.5% represents typical as found on a hifi forum…
but to a salesperson in a shop,… very possible.
(I listen to my mate sell hifi and cannot believe the schooling he has to offer the typical customer)
Glad I’m in the 99.5%. Clearly having cloth ears gives me a much wider range of options. (And , yes, I kept the Nova for another room and I still enjoy it).
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As others have said as well, I’m not quite sure I understand your post. Especially how it applies to the Unitis, who’s amplification is class AB.
Your sample size also seems a bit small to draw such generic conclusions.
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I’ve experienced a low cost matched ADC-DAC pairing which to my ears did not introduce anything negative, and I’ve never heard “burn-in” of electronics or cables, so I guess I am one of the fortunate cloth eared hifi enthusiasts. I hope never to develop ears/listening skills that make me dissatisfied with most of what I hear. I can tell the difference between the various DACs I’ve tried, and between the speakers, and amps, and feel I have made good choices throughout my hifi career path to the pinnacle at which I am now at, even if I do prefer the sound of digital (when done well) to analogue as restricted by media like vinyl and cassette.
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I agree with you in that you must have cloth ears.
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Thank you. And a delight they are, too. Without them I doubt I’d have ended up content with kit worth only £50k, instead I’d be spending all my time trying multiple different cables and other tweaks and trying to find perfect recordings instead of enjoying and immersing myself in wonderful music
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Peoples; lets not try and pretend that any persons given acuity with hearing equipment has ANY bearing on enjoying MUSIC.
whilst you may be both entertaining polar opposite viewpoints (each reinforcing beliefs that suit you presently); I think the notion that people who can pull equipment apart (by ear) don’t enjoy budget-fi is too silly for words.
Some of my favourite music in the last decade has played through 2x JBL Pulse “bluetooth” speakers - in the front yard, whilst the missus and I enjoyed a game or three of backgammon.
Same speakers were often soccer posts when at the park with the kids.
Pretending that people who CAN hear observable differences that others cannot (or will not) are somehow elitists is silly. Being rude to each other does not change our hobbies, nor the facts as we perceive them.
It does bring everyone down- and this is a community site.
I’d like to think those with open minds who may be here to learn should have a safe space to appreciate hobbyists ‘doing their stuff’.
Sadly, I do limit my music catalogue, where possible, to buying ‘good masterings’ (any format) , and split my catalogue DECADES AGO, for the two channel ‘den setup’ (good recordings) and the mastered for loudness wars /‘radio play’ stuff that has homogenised volume swings (or lack there of) and sounds better via the home theatre rig… (with moar subs and moar powa and moar speakerz)…
Just because I have come to utilize as much of my learnings with regards to high fidelity sound (truths such as speakers and recordings make the largest difference to the audio, where as amplifier quality and DAC choice etc can be ‘more subtle’ (and cables as tweaks to finished setups to tailor sound as appropriate etc))…
Doesn’t mean that the ‘horsepoop’ I speak about (for some, ie ‘cables’) is irrelevant.
We shouldn’t be derrogatory in these enthusiast sites regarding the ‘minutia’ of the hobby… -where else is one seeking such info likely to find it.
When we constantly try to cover over others’ findings because ‘we haven’t experienced them’ we just make what little data that IS available MUCH HARDER TO FIND for those that want to learn.
A recent thread asking about ‘longest breaking times you have expereinced’ (and even prefaced 'don’t comment if you don’t experience breakin) was LITTERED with quipping naysayers filling the thread count with pointless posts.
Its a bit rude to “own the hobby” and be an ‘authority’ (especially when acknowledging “don’t have acuity for hearing ‘subtle’ things”), and outright smother over viewpoints that are not in alignment.
I come here for the pool of information.
It wouldn’t be scientific if facts that (don’t)fit the present model are buried over in order to keep things neat. (and then when the inevitable paradigm shift happens, be behind in our information gathering because ‘no data recorded’)
Golden ears doens’t make me an audio snob (I don’t think I have golden ears for starters), but it sometimes helps me figure out which bits of kit just aren’t worth persevering with…
again: community; rejoice!
Who’s being rude? I’m lightheartedly putting myself down not being rude, and if T32803 was trying to be rude I didn’t take it that way (if I had, I would have said so).
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