NDX and Tidal Master Quality Files

Thank you for the non-answer …

You are correct, you cannot play the Tidal masters through the Naim app regardless of platform.

To fully play the files that Tidal serve as ‘masters’ requires MQA compatible hardware which Naim is not. MQA divides opinions as the format is lossy and isn’t viewed as a true master by many.

You can get part of the way to playing MQZ masters on the new platform (and the old with some workarounds) using Roon as Roon can perform the first stage of decoding called the first unfold. The second unfold which fully exploits the MQA format can only be done if the player supports MQA.

I used to subscribe to Tidal and use Roon and with my NDS the results of MQA were quite acceptable although not really ahead of 16/44. I ended up turning MQA off. However QoBuz sounds much better so my advice is to not worry too much and use QoBuz instead. Then you get the full master which hasn’t been mashed around by the MQA processing.

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Just to report back, so I’ve taken out a trial membership of Qobuz, tried to set up BubbleUPnP as @jmtennapel described in post with screen shot. To stream “WAV”, when I try this the music plays for 6 seconds then stops, if I try again the same happens. Looks like a performance issue with network / laptop? I figure as I’m on wifi on my laptop to my home network this might be the issue. I’ve tried to connect the laptop to the router direct but unfortunately the server cannot be reached from the laptop when I do the “Internet connectivity” test on tab status, even though I have set up https and http ports to be accessed on my laptop (58050, 58051)- it fails. Something to investigate and fix, while I’m home. :blush:

The other option I was thinking was to hook the laptop direct to the NDX via lan connection but then I’m not going to be able to use the Linn Kazoo app. The third thing I was thinking, is it not possible to run Qobuz app on the same laptop as the BubbleUPnP server and hook up the laptop direct to NDX via lan connection?

The sound quality

I’ve had the NDX for a few years, have only had Tidal use as I do not have a NAS connected to the NDX, I was thinking of doing this but have never got round to ripping all my CDs. I’ve only heard 96/24 flac files via the usb (I found out recently that the NDX converts this to mp3). From what I had heard of the NDX felt it was a bit mediocre- it was time for a upgrade. I kept reading reviews- everyone seemed to shout about it, from what I had heard I never knew what the fuss was about. Until…

Before I go on a big thanks to @jmtennapel, I would have never have discovered the NDX full potential. Setting Qobuz- FLAC 24bits / up to 192khz from the drop down. OMG, I’ve never heard the NDX sing like this before, I can hear things that I have never heard before! The sound is toe tapping rhythmic and it flows! I can hear air, micro dynamics, stop start on the note… arrgggh, so much! I’m gobsmacked! I was listening all night! I’ve heard up to 192/24, the majority of tracks are 96/24 on Qobuz. The difference, the sound, let me say again the sound- OMG! What cave have I been staying in? Once I get the “WAV” part working on the BubbleUPnP server, I’m sure things will improve further.

Now I’m thinking, shall I go for a power supply first then a NDX2? Are we talking night and day differences here? Or shall I just enjoy what I’ve got, I’m getting the upgraditis itch coming on!

So how does Qobuz data stream differ than Tidal when it comes to Hi Res, Tidal compresses to MQA what does Qubuz do just send as flac data file?

I’m finally ditching Tidal what a waste of money!

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Sounds like good advice. A couple of members now, have alluded to the same path.
Since I have an SU still as my streamer, I’ll have to pick up a Node 2 or 2i, to stream Qobuz in the meantime, till I can afford an NDX2. Probably a used one.

Because of the protectionist attitude that the Canadian Gov’t and the CRTC have always had, Qobuz still isn’t available in Canada, but I believe it’s possible to get around that with a VPN when signing up, and maybe signing on. It may never be available here thru proper channels.
There has to be about 30% Can content, which is kinda difficult when there’s only about 30 good Canadian songs. Lol.

I’d like to be able to belong to just one streaming site, so Roon is out anyway.

Dave

That’s great! I’ll look into some computer-based music applications. I’m quite adept at computers, so install, setup and connection there, shouldn’t be a problem. I have 3 computers on my network. One is a laptop.
I’ll research this and come back with some options, and maybe one will get recommended highly.
Thanks so much.

Dave

I’ve changed things as you have described, this hasn’t fixed things with the conversion side of things. Re- installed BubbleUPnP, this didn’t fix things then I went to the C:\Program Files (x86)\BubbleUPnP Server directory located file “ffmpeg.exe”, deleted this and installed from FFMPEG website. Still the same issue. From this I concluded that “ffmpeg.exe” is not the issue, another words the conversion side of things on the laptop are fine.

Next stop the network and the router (Talk Talk), so I tried investigating the router settings, nothing out of the ordinary here. I gave it another go around 6.30 am, it worked! streamed 192/24 (9.2 mbps ) & 92/24 (4.6 mbps) in wav. Only for one song each then I got the same- stopping, sticking and stuttering- playing for a few seconds.

I performed a internet speed test- download speed is 30.67 mbps and upload speed is 9.20 mbps, is this the issue? Do I need faster broadband? The issue seems network related?

All FLAC versions can be played without any issue. In Linn Kazoo app they show up for example as “FLAC 96 khz/24 bit 0 kbps”, instead of the 4.6 mbps or 9.2 mbps. I think when the data rate goes up that is when the issue occurs. This happens when the laptop is hard wired to the network or on wifi.

When I set NDX to UPnP, on the screen it says no server found, should it be showing something here? Like the BubbleUPnP Server details?

I’m lost, if there was some way to simulate the data rate ramped up throughput from the Linn Kazoo app, I might be able to prove network throughput issue.

Interesting thread, especially as I am looking at a new streamer and it was this kind of confusion over compatibility that made me stick with a Sonos digitally into a DAC instead of an NDX circa 10 years ago.

Maybe Naim could answer some points of interest.

IF and I say IF (as I’m not requesting MQA) to be included in a product, would the company pay some sort of yearly licence ? Or would it be like, 20 quid licence per box or something?

Just interested in the economics of this.

Thanks for your help much appreciated.

Laptops fairly new, I believe it’s the network capacity somehow it’s getting constrained. Going to run some diagnostics- network latency tests, capacity throughput etc.

Hi @Martinzero

MQA is a licensable format and each product sold has a one off licence fee. Products that are already sold and will gain MQA by software update is up to the manufacturer to negotiate with MQA Ltd. how this will be handled.

Otherwise it is R&D and recertification time for adding the format that has to be justified. It runs quite deep and has side effects on Tidal, Roon, DSP/DAC, Multiroom, external S/PDIF inputs and all user interfaces, plus ensuring the original audio performance of the products are maintained. It’s a business case that is very expensive to add and maintain so needs a strong customer demand to justify it.

Last year we made the decision to do Qobuz on all platforms that can properly support it. Based on Qobuz’s new owners, roll out to USA and ever growing lossless hidef library it was a sound business case to invest in it.

We do however watch the progress of MQA in market adoption and financial state of MQA Ltd. to guide us if the technology has gained sufficient adoption to justify the R&D investment and increased product licensing costs. For those who are using our newer range of products that are Roon RAAT enabled, you can get a taste of MQA 1st unfold from that.

Best regards

Steve Harris
Software Director
www.naimaudio.com

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Steve, thanks for “the decision to do Qobuz on all platforms that can properly support it.”

I was a long time TIDAL user with no interest in pursing MQA. As soon as Qobuz was available in the US I did a comparison and thought Qobuz was the company with the better product sound wise. I was happy that my NDX 2 supported the product!

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audirvana on windows and mac can do the 1st level tidal MQA unfold.

Fantastic info, thanks Steve.

In my mind, MQA should have long ago reached critical mass to incorporate it into the product. I have a 500.00 portable player dac, headphone amp that has it, and it’s so simple, no games to play , just open the tidal app, pick a song with MQA and play. This product is marketed as a streamer and the reputation of Naims high quality sound. Not sure how that is when we still have to listen at CD quality, albeit, one of the better CD quality sounds. CDs are so 80s and 90s, lol. I just bought a Naim yesterday, and considering returning it and getting an NAD which does support MQA

It’s because Naim have a reputation of high quality sound that they haven’t seen fit to support an inferiour format.

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Jm, I think we will have to agree to disagree on the critical mass issue. Look at numbers of subscribers for tidal and their competitor. Numbers not that different, and by far there’s much more buzz on the forums, online, and all the audiophiles I know, tidal and MQA seems to be their preference. But high resolution in general has been making a big push in the consumers minds, not just audiophiles. Non audiophiles seem to at least have heard about MQA, maybe because it’s just shorter and easier to remeber.

I jumped from Tidal to Qobuz because the quality of the music was better. I have no interest in pursuing another technology and believe TIDAL made a mistake going with MQA and it may be a reason they eventually go under… A lot of people have jumped from Tidal to Qobuz when it came available in the US, better sound at a better price.

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It would be good for all people criticizing MQA to have first a listen on them with a true MQA dac . If not, it’s only speculation.

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Add Roon and a UPnP Bridge for the NDX, and you are sorted for Tidal, Tidal Masters, Qobuz, MQA (1st unfold to 24/96), and all other formats (DSD128, DSD256, DSD512, DXD etc.), plus a better UI and Library management system.
The Naim app stopped adding new features for use with the NDX, NDS, ND5XS and 3rd party UPnP server use years ago.

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