Sound quality of course could be due to other factors - a notable one being integrated vs separate power amp.
Thanks for slight, I really appreciate it.
If you actually take care to read what I wrote carefully that may help. Can something that sink 16A and 250W into a one ohm load drive the the speaker? Of course! You may subjectively like the sound from another solution though for all sorts of reasons.
Bored now. Bye
If you google for : " Naim Supernait integrated amplifier Measurements " , you’ll find the Stereophile measurements.
Not bad at all for an integrated.
I had the SuperNait 2 for a couple of years.
It didn’t do it for me. It was fun for pop/rosck, but for classical…
I changed for the 252DR/300DR.
Hi Nick, sadly, although it does sound superior my records haven’t seen the light of day in 3 months. My favorite albums where cleaned at #cymbiosis a year of so ago. My cartridge has barely seen 100 hours of use, it is a Rega Elys2, on an RB300, Techoweight upgrade, and AO rewire, the latest upgrades, pre pandemic, where done by Peter, Wayne did an AB comparison with an LP12 majik, the PT sounded more majikal, leaving the LP12 sound pale and a little anemic! I was thinking of either an AT cart or a Houdini from AK.
The thing is though DSD256 via Roon and my March DAC comes very close to the vinyl.
I am a man of limited means.
The rest of my system is a Naim 200 and 202/Stageline powered by a TP PSU.
Kudos x3’s and KS1 speaker cables
Titan STYX mains cables for my amplification.
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Thanks! And that shows the SN2 apparently much more limited in peak power compared to the spec for 250 (though it’s a pity Stereophile didn’t also test the latter to show on an identical basis).
In terms of power, according to specs and measurements, the 250DR can deliver high peaks of current.
It is much noisier than the 300DR or the 500DR, and does not have their refinement, but in terms of raw power it holds its own.
I’ve run a SN2 and a 252 into a SN2 as a power amp, and then replaced the SN2 with a 250 DR. The drive the 250 has on my speakers compared to the SN2 is very significant in all regards.
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Whilst the most common measurements might not reveal any nuances character an amp might have, this is a good example of where listening and measurements tell the same story!
Would it be possible a room, system and seakers perspective layout pic.
With that room and layout, I would not think about it anymore and I would do without the Magico A1, because they need practically 1 m of air around, especially with the back wall and the sides, and they will never finish sounding as they should, not only for the amplifier, if they can not have an appropriate configuration; instead I would go to some ProAc Tablette 10 SE, Spendor 4/5 or even Dali Menuet, monitors that, all of them, not so demanding they work perfectly more embedded and restricted.
Believe me, spending money going to the top high end when the room does not tolerate it, is throwing money away to get nothing; without going to the extreme of @Thomas, I have also been there…
I couldn’t agree more.
An engineer from PSI Audio came to my place to bring me a demo AVAA C20 and to discuss the acoustic treatment of my room.
It was really fascinating.
There is a massive difference in approach between the audiophile world and the infinitely more pragmatic professional world.
Some base their decisions and choices on “feelings” and “impressions”, forgetting the many cognitive and psychoacoustical biases, while others base their decisions on objective data.
One thing is indisputable: the room accounts for ~50% of what we hear. The rest of the system (electronics, speakers, etc.) for the other 50%.
A second thing is indisputable, the room introduces distortion and deteriorates the sound produced by the speakers.
That being said, we have to live with the room we have. If it is not treated, it is clear that we will never hear the speakers at their full potential, far from it.
It’s a bit like an expensive sports car.
It’s obvious that you’ll never know what a Ferrari SF90 Stradale is capable of if you use it on a normal road, or even a motorway. In fact, it’s almost absurd to have a car like this and use it on normal roads.
But these cars are nevertheless sold…
The owners of these beautiful toys sometimes use them up to 100% of their capacity, on the track, sometimes those cars only see normal roads.
Nevertheless, a Ferrari will always outperform a Golf GTI, even on a normal road…
This is also true for HiFi.
As always, it’s a matter of choice.
And the most important thing is to have fun and enjoy the music. No matter the system or the room.
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Yes, as a generalisation a better speaker will sound better than a lesser one whatever the room (there will be limitations, just as with the car analogy - e.g. on an uneven road with bumps high enough to scrape its chassis a Ferrari will struggle to do as well as a car with greater ground clearance.).
If the character of a particular speaker is exactly what someone likes, even if driven by a less than ideal amp, then going for lesser alternatives is not the answer, rather it is a question of maximising the benefit of the speakers, which may mean improving the amp, and doing whatever is domestically acceptable with improving the room. The car analogy works here also: someone for whom the Ferrari is the perfect car will never be truly happy with an Golf GTI, instead they can improve their driving by going on a specialist course to enable them to get the best out of it on whatever roads they may find themselves.
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All true but here we are not talking of a single compnent. It is a matching of amplifier system with a set of speakers with a room set up, and with a source. Any change in any one of those components can massively affect the sound. The best source in the world will not display its capabilities with a non optimal speaker room combination, just as the best speaker for a room will not display what they can do if the amplifier can not drive them correctly. Synergy is everything and the good thing about using a dealer showroom, if available, is to get the basic synergy right before taking them home and trying out the room interactions.
( I can say this having recently tested a number of components in two different rooms)
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@bruss - that’s succinctly put and very fair.
However, since we all have different rooms, ears and tastes, focusing on the unique/ idiosyncratic/ subjective bits here makes communication tricky - and what would hi-fi reviews do if they had to spend longer describing the room shape and furnishings than the music-playing experience.
We don’t need to revisit Wittgenstein texts from our youth ( or the ‘very like a whale’ line from Hamlet) to remember that we use language to talk about the things it can usefully communicate - and that is not everything.
We can’t really discuss usefully most room effects here, because no two are the same etc, so we focus on the things we can discuss.
We also need to remember that those of us obsessed with home demonstrations (as I am) are fortunate. If we were still young and poor and trying to build a multi-source system for less than £1000, and so buying very second-hand boxes from private sellers, a home demonstration would be a luxury as likely as being given a yacht.
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Yes, Which is why I have found this ( and other forums) particularly useful. I live in the French countryside and it is easier for me to visit a dealer in the UK than it is to visit one here. (Ryanair allowing). I only point out the synergy required as an aim rather than an absolute available to all. Hopefully it can help avoid expensive mistakes or false impressions of otherwise very good kit.
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I wouldn’t put it that way.
Room and HiFi are two completely independent things.
The behaviour of the room, and its room modes, depend only on the room’s geometry (and building materials).
The HiFi does not influence the geometry of the room. Obviously…
The only thing that matters is the sound volume.
Or, more precisely, the volume at specific frequencies.
If we have a room mode at 43Hz and the loudspeakers cannot produce a large amount of sound at 43Hz the room will resonate less.
Bingo! Problem solved! … Or not.
But those loudspeakers will not be able to reproduce faithfully that beautiful double bass line either.
In conclusion, the choice of loudspeakers or electronics does not matter. The room is what it is.
That leaves us with a cornelian choice :
-
Either we faithfully reproduce what is in the recording and end up with that nasty 43Hz room mode.
-
Or we accept an incomplete musical reproduction, using less capable speakers/system.
…
Uh no, there is a third choice :
- we treat the room!
Hi @Thomas - fair enough, and we all agree that it will be tricky to get chest-shaking bass portrayed properly in a 10 foot square room, but that’s not the whole story.
In some rooms, often (but not only) due to size, LS 3/5s or Linn Kans clearly work and big floor-standers don’t. In some rooms, and at some preferred volume levels, a speaker that will work fine 70cm from all walls ends up too close and doesn’t work while a rival works fine. In some rooms, a downward-firing Isobaric design will be firing into a shag-pile carpet or a rear port makes a window rattle. For any given room, I’d say choice of speakers matters a lot.
There are limits on room treatment too. I was willing to close off a door and turn my living room contents round to get the hi-fi sounding better, but I am not willing to get rid of the sofa that is in theory a bit close to one speaker or the frankly bouncy wooden floor or to install sound-deadening panels on my ceiling.
Everyone surely has such limits on what they will do to help their hifi, and the treatments a room ‘needs’ to accommodate a speaker may well be domestically/ aesthetically unacceptable.
Thus, exactly as @bruss says, in the real world, we need to consider room and speakers together. Choices of speaker will drive choices of amplifiers and sources, so none of this is really ‘independent’ at all.
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Ah but I’m not looking for that complete musical reproduction. If I were I’d have a music room and even then it would need the original sound engineers to come round and ensure it sounded the same as it did in their headphones perhaps. I am looking for the best I can get in my living room, or study, or bedroom with all their limitations. The best speaker for one of those rooms is never going to be the best for another of those rooms.
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Your conclusions are entirely valid and wise. Ultimately, we build a system according to our tastes, the room we have, and the compromises we accept. It’s a delicate balance.
But you will allow me to disagree on one point.
From the room’s acoustic perspective, the gear choice is irrelevant. It is the geometry of the room and the SPL at specific frequencies, that makes the room shake or not.
I could go into more details regarding the behaviour of closed speakers, ported, to be placed against walls or not, etc., but I think it is not very important.
And to go in your direction, there is an essential element that is not discussed much on the forum: psychoacoustics.
The brain is an extraordinary filter which is able to reconstruct or filter sounds.
There is also the fact that noise or distortion is something that can be pleasant.
A hi-fi system can’t reproduce reality, live music. At best it reproduces the master made by the sound engineer.
What counts in the end is the pleasure we get from the music or the fun we have with our equipment. That’s also part of the game.
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I think your approach is absolutely valid and it is possible that I could live with a dedicated and carefully prepared music room. I just don’t have that requirement just yet.
Regarding the brain and our hearing capabilities, that to me is the greatest difference between us all. I have sometimes been sat in a demo room and not agreed with the dealers choice. 
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By the way Thomas. I am in awe of your dedication and work to achieve your room. I think you are going to enjoy the outcome. This is the good thing about this forum. I am learning all the time.
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