Out with Roon, in with the Naim app

And yet some people hear that it does. Ergo, hearing is not proof. Hurray, after years we have come to that point :joy:

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Can we be 100% sure of that.

A few years ago I remember an app provider claimed that modifying the app, so it doesnā€™t communicate with the server as often, brings a sonic improvement.

So, it is feasible some Naim app upgrades might have resulted in a SQ upgrade, although whether itā€™s detectable will probably be hardware/system/ears dependant.

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There are small but easy to hear differences between the control App from Naim with respect to the Release and Beta-test version which (I think) gathers more realtime data - but since that is a very specific case that non Beta -test customers will not experience essentially Iā€™d say the Release App versions themselves are identical or near-identical with respect any impact on SQ.

The object of the Beta testing of the Apps to to test other things so it is more a mention that there can be small differences for different reasons - and even then not everyone will hear that as any difference depending on how revealing their system is as it is a small sonic signature.

Bigger differences are and can be elsewhere. If I as alternative to the Naim App use something like Upplay (which works on my Win 10 PC) to access and control files then the sound is markedly different - again a small difference but more obvious and in that case I prefer the Naim App signature.

Just observations and no idea why - I just experiment and use what works best.

DB.

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Have you tried listening to an album or playlist, and powering down the device the app is on, after you start playing the album.

Maybe it was my English, but I donā€™t remember saying that updates of the Naim app change the sound. Firmware updates and different apps when streaming from a Naim streamer ( Naim app, Mconnect, Roonā€¦) , yes.
But I confess that my post above, yesterday, added confusion.

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Not done that test - perhaps I donā€™t want to know! :slightly_smiling_face:

My aim is always to be able to have easy-access to and control of my music with no compromise to SQ.
Having to re-start the App for another track or album is a bit painful as it takes up to a minute for it to find my Melco music server for some reason - it always finds it but the delay is irritating - it finds the ND555 immediately so it is probabaly an advertising interval thing with the Melco outside the Naim App, but I have to live with it all as a system.

I try to keep some proportion here - the effects are audible and there can be preferences but thse are small effects compaed to some other system set-up things worth having correct.

DB.

I canā€™t recall that you did, sorry if I wasnā€™t clear. Other people did, I donā€™t want to name them.

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??
Why the gratuitous swipe at Americans, Jan?

A poll, with 167 forum members so far, shows 47% using Roon as their primary streaming software and 53% not. A higher proportion using Roon than I expected based on posts over recent years, but not a majority. How many have tried Roon and donā€™t understand its attraction is of course a different questionā€¦.

For my part Iā€™ve trialed it twice, the first time intensely disliking it, the second a few years later, during which time some things had been changed, it wasnā€™t dislike but simply nothing that I found sufficiently beneficial to come anywhere near justifying its cost compared to the alternative that I use, though I do understand its attraction for people who desire the things it does.

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Have you tried Ethernet over mains adaptor.
This sorted all my dropouts and is much cheaper than the mesh offerings.

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A significantly higher proportion than I would have expected as well, given that this is a Naim forum where the majority of respondents are likely to be Naim users with access to Naimā€™s own pretty reasonable and free app. Furthermore,

A) it does take a bit of effort and some expense to set up Roon from scratch
B) it is quite difficult to understand exactly what Roon is and what it offers in the way of a music discovery experience until you undertake that effort and experience Roon for yourself. I really didnā€™t understand what Roon was all about until I bit the bullet out of sheer curiosity, purchased an Intel NUC to house the Roon core and signed up for a trial period. Once I had Roon up and running, it only took a few hours to convince me that Roon was here to stay.

I can certainly understand why some might be reluctant to take the plunge given the effort and cost involved, but Iā€™d be genuinely surprised if many of those who do trial Roon and get it up and running end up being disappointed.

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Thanks for the suggestion, however having good fast connectivity is core to my work life and other hobbies outside of music streaming so this is simply no option for me.

I am curious about the reasons people started using it. For me it was because when I got my first Uniti, streaming via the Naim app was no option for me. I was having daily freezes on my Star. Roon was my solution for this. And, of course, as it is a better interface than the Naim app it stayed until now when it became the problematic link in my streaming chain.

These were also the days before Tidal connect. I think that the Tidal interface offers a lot of what Roon does. Ok it does not combine services or local files, but I think that if, at that stage, Tidal connect was available I may very well have gone that route.

I tried it because I read so many comments on here about how good it was. I attempted, without any success, to understand what it did, by reading about it, so eventually downloaded it primarily to work out what it was.

For me it was revolutionary, and I would suggest those who havenā€™t tried it, consider giving it a go for free. You can use your PC/Mac as the Core while you try it, without spending any money, and move to an NUC/Nucleus/Audiobox option if you decide to keep it. Iā€™m no IT genius, but I found it simple and intuitive to set up.

As the poll indicates, clearly there are lots of Roon disciples on here and at least as many who choose to use other options. Thereā€™s no obligation either way. Hard-core Roonies should go easy with their proselytizing, and naysayers should accept the weird Roon-world is good for some.

For all the benefits of Wi-Fi technology, a direct connection via Ethernet cable will always provide superior performance.
If speed and large stable data downloads are important Ethernet mains is the way to go. Only caveat is if you have very unusual home wiring.

Thanks again for the advice. However I am reasonably well versed in the benefits / drawbacks being a software developer by trade. This is not a solution I will be considering for my home.

And again, the reason for me posting this thread was regarding the outcome of a months long investigation.

I use the Naim app, previously I used a stack of Sonos devices for multi-room and search/queue/etc the appeal being in the very good controller, now sadly gone. I have a 24tb NAS (Synology) with about 10,000 ripped CDā€™s on it so my Naim kit has direct access via my network, also to Tidal and Qubos. Sonos have really lost their way and their pretension to Hi-Fi is misguided, however running the Sonos feed though a Naim DAC/XPS the sound was pretty good. I have dropped it all now.

I tried Roon on an extended trial. It was very unstable and needed constant attention and compared to the ease of use of the Sonos controller simply did not stack up. I see the appeal, but could not get past the aggrevation required and constant re-configuration. The Naim app has improved, I have access to all my local and subscription services, find search easy (having worked extensively on the meta data on my NAS!) get good value added from the booklet function which I use frequently when exploring new material and I find it stable on IOS and Android devices.

However a couple of things strike me in this thread. One is the dislike of subscription based software. I have run and have recently sold a company that provided solutions under a subscription licence. The key to value lies in the frequency and quality of updates, so for example an anti-virus product updates frequently due to the nature of the threats it deals with; I do wonder how often updates to Roon are needed, so assume the subscription is for access to wider content? We probaly all pay for this via Tidal et al, and in my opinion these services are good value provided a good proportion of our subs go to the artists. I will not use Apple because they do not share fairly.

I also wonder about the quality of the Roon software if it causes the types of problems discussed here and that I have experienced. The complexity of making good software is not widely understood. The Roon server approach makes sense, build and test the central service and deliver the same to all users. However add in the local installations and controllers opens a whole world of pain and multiple development streams for Roon, which I guess is where quality goes to hell. Naim of course also have this problem, but seem to be on top of it.

I respect the views of those who love Roon, for me the Naim app does all I need and I read widely to find new musical avenues to explore I do not need an algorythm for that, nor do I want to listen to similar music all the time.

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And Roon is a global team so itā€™s not true at all. MD is based in the UK.

I discover music myself, using Roon by reading up on the artists and albums in the bios and reviews and then using its hyperlinks to other albums and artists and collaborators that are mentioned in the reviews. Why does everyone think itā€™s all AI algorithms itā€™s not they are only part of what Roon does for discovery. The biggest part is you can explore your own music in more detail and find other music related to it without leaving the app and add them to listen to. Any artists that are are said to be an influence are linked, other albums by the same band are linked. The musicians are linked, producers, engineers.

You like the saxophone on a specific track you look at who played it and you can see every other track they have been part of in your library and what you donā€™t in streaming. This does not distract listening as itā€™s done before or after. The AI stuff works for the radio and you have other recommendations given on top of this they are not the primary way. It gives you many ways to discover music.

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As a Room user I discovered the Cocteau Twins by playing Massive Attack. :slightly_smiling_face:

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This is definitely a very big plus point of Roon.

But I am not one of the users who use that. In my own experience deep linking to artists in other collaborations have, more often than not, lead to results I do not enjoy. But for someone who do enjoy that it really is a great tool.

For me the main reasons for Roon was:

  • Better interface.
  • Runs on my computer as well.
  • Combines my libraries.
  • Metadata for local files.
  • Suggests other music based on what I have listened to.

That was truly all I used. Never use Focus, never use the stats, never use the deep drilling of artists. In a way I think one could call me a Roon User Lite ā„¢ :smile:

So I can replace the music search as well as computer control with what Tidal offers with Tidal connect and, for me at least, Tidal seems to offer a far more accurate music suggestion than Roon ever did. But YMMV.

The rest remained a question of how much money do I want to spend extra to retain what Roon offers on those points over the Naim app and that equation is no longer going the way of Roon. For me.