Appreciate I’m new here (although had Naim kit for 20+ years), but I thought I’d post and see if anyone has any ideas on a odd issue I’ve notice with my speakers.
I’ve got a pair of S600 Ovator’s which I’ve been very happy with (I know the Ovators aren’t always loved). They suit my room size well and I’ve put them on a set of Gaia I with some carpet spikes which slightly improved them further (bit tighter base, little sharper vocals).
So what’s the problem… well it seems one of them has a very small lean. At first I thought it was the Gaia’s needed adjusting, then maybe the carpet spikes…etc. But long story short… the Ovator is very, very slightly leaning to the right between the plinth and the main speaker section, and it’s at the back of the speaker. This lean causes the gap between the plinth and cabinet to reduce towards the back of the unit, visually not really very noticable, but running my fingers down it and comparing it’s definitely a smaller gap. Manoeuvering the speaker to investigate also produces a little click when the speaker settles down on the plinth/floor again. The other speaker is 100% level, with consistent gap between the plinth and cabinet and no clicks on movement.
The speakers are working perfectly and there are no ‘clicks’ during playback.
So I’m thinking that something is wrong with the leaf spring at the back on the right? Are the Gaia’s masking a problem with the suspension? Any idea’s what it could be and how to fix it?
I’ve ordered a torque adjustable screwdriver which will be with me mid-week and I’ve got the torque settings quoted in other threads on the forum (someone mentioned a PDF with specs and parts - would love to get a copy of that to aid in diagnosis and repair if possible).
Any suggestions gratefully received, as I really don’t want to pack up and ship a 68KG speaker back to dealer/Salisbury if I can avoid it.
If you have moved them allot, very high chance of base needing re torqued tightened, mine certainly did back in the day, I was fortunate a couple of top Naim guys were visiting my dealer and I was on route and I got an overall retorque, they neaded it.
I have had a look at the previous posts around s600 and the Torque settings. Most are around the BMR and Bass drivers rather than the plinth/leaf spring settings - but there was a reference to 3-3.5nm values. I’ve emailed Naim Support for the PDF others have referenced with, hopefully, the factory view of the torque values.
Any other thoughts? Do the leaf springs snap? They have moved around a bit in the last 8 years, but not drastically?
If they are anything like the leaf springs on SL2s then snapping seems highly unlikely. Do they still rock, or has one side sort of collapsed? It may be worth reaching our to your dealer. Someone from Naim may be in your area and be able to drop in and fix them.
I’d try to check whether the spikes are not loose and remove the Gaia’s. I seem to remember that @Darkebear has filled up the space under his Ovators and that that was beneficial for the sound quality. Gaia’s lift the Ovators and therefore increase the gap.
Regarding the leaf spring, I don’t think that’s the problem since it rests only in the middle on it, unless the leaf spring is on one side loose.
If you decide to check the ovator base, make sure that the transport screws are fitted otherwise the BMR unit might get damaged.
Nice loudspeakers, I’m enjoying them a lot but it took a while to get them going. I should retorque mine and check out the solder joints, it’s time for a bit maintenance.
I remember that mine could rock too, but I can’t remember whether the rocking they currently can do is sufficient.
This is the way to go - ask Naim support to send you the PDF for the Torques.
You first locate your BMR transit bolts and put those into the back of the speaker behind the BMR assembly - before turning the speaker 90 degrees front-up (with suitable preparation and help).
The bolts underneath can indeed get loose and it may be some of those by your description.
Very easy to fix - a set at my Dealers when he stocked them needed that fix when the base had loosened (Dealer moves speakers about more than a customer) - they sound a lot better after re-torque.
Don’t over-do the Torque - if anything I found a slightly lower torque better and certainly not higher is better, so use the ones Naim specify. I suggest you do not touch the BMR bolts nearest the actual driver at front (they tend to stay correct) but only outer ring of bolts for the assembly housing front and back. Torque on these if incorrect can make the driver ‘shout’ if too tight or go dull if too loose, so there is a sweet-spot around what Naim say it should be!
Do all the underneath bolts for the stand first - then right the speaker and level - then finish all the other front bolts and do a ‘before’ and ‘after’ for each set of drivers you torque - so you can hear it is better.
The Bass drivers also need the right torque - again I found slightly below the setting specified was best for both my S600 and also now my S800.
I also found - different from how Naim describe doing it - that it works best to slightly loosen to a bit below the specified torque all around the 8 bolts - then begin at one and go in a circle bolt to bolt in clockwise or the other way - not across the drive unit either side at a time.
I never got that method to make the speaker voice correct compared to the way I’ve just described. Chasing the torque around in a circle once the torque is already close to spec seemed to seat them very evenly. The ‘side-to-side’ method of torque-setting may work better when they are brand new and the gasket needs to be even - but after that initial setting-up when new I found the above better.
I was surprised it made a difference but I found it did.
Anyway - just information - don’t panic, you should get them fixed by tightening the bolts underneath - especially in your case the Leaf spring bolts.
The Torque driver arrived and Naim Support sent me the formal Torque recommendations. Unfortunately they just sent me the values and not the PDF people have referred too.
Those values are :
S400 and S600 bass drivers are torqued first at 4nm then back to 3nm and BMR is torqued at 2nm.
Plinth to cabinet (2x bolt at front) 3.6nm
Leaf spring to cabinet (4x bolt rear middle) 2.5nm
Leaf spring to plinth (2x bolt, 1 left and 1 right rear) 3.6nm
Crossover board (6x bolt around black board) 2nm
BMR tube suspension plates are 2.5nm and cosmetic plate is 2nm.
(I note from other threads the view that the bass drivers might not need the 4nm to 3nm except on the first tightening, so I just went straight to 3nm)
On laying the speakers down on soft padding (and putting the transit bolts in for the BMR), I did indeed find some bolts looser than spec between the plinth and the cabinet… this has sorted the alignment issue that first raised my concerns. The actual drivers were all OK, but I am pleased I have checked them and will do so again maybe annually… BUT…
I have noticed one speaker has more easy lateral movement in it’s ‘springy-ness’ than the other which is stiffer. I ended up doing a side by side comparison with the crossovers out and they look identical and the bolts are all torqued to spec… so I don’t know why? I have noticed also there is a small gap 1-2mm between the leaf spring and the plinth when the bolt and washer is in-situ and torqued?
so unanswered questions which I will ping Naim support on…
Is this lateral movement correct… in which case the ‘stiffer’ speaker is wrong, or should the lateral movement be more limited as per the ‘stiffer speaker’ so this speaker is wrong… or is it variable and both are fine?
Can they supply any diagram on the bolt, washer, leaf spring set up so I can verify I’m not missing anything? Is there supposed to be this small gap between the leafspring and the pinth when the bolt and washer are in place and torqued… I suspect so as both speakers have it, but I’d like to confirm.
Obviously if anyone of the forum has an idea on this, I’d be interested to know, Also if anyone can scan and post the ‘PDF’ incase it has any other information or instructions in it that would be great. I will again ask Naim for this PDF, but the support person I spoke too didn’t seem to know what I was on about and went off and came back with the above spec’s just written in the mailed reply.
Just to also note, the speakers are working perfectly, I can’t tell any difference in the sound from the tightening up, they sound great and I do have that warm feeling that it’s not a particular issue and I’d now just like to understand the movement question a bit more to put my mind at rest.
I get the gist of the issue you have raised, but I can’t add anything to what has already been said. I run active S600s so my base will be the one for active configuration. I bought the speakers ex-demo and the base change was made by Jason from Naim. Subsequently I noted some sibilance from one of the drive units, so I asked my local dealer to obtain the pdf sheet from Naim. This was some time ago, but I still have a copy. Please ask @Richard.Dane to put you in contact with me, or he may he confirm that I can post the pdf here.
@Darkebear has provided a lot of very useful advice in the past, including for Ovators.
A question for those with experience of torque screwdrivers, I am not an engineer. I was cautioned that any screw which needs to be set, should first be loosened, since a screw driver does not indicate an overtightened screw, simply that the setting on the driver has been reached (or exceeded).
Is that a correct statement?
For an overtightened screw, yes, that is correct. Also, a screw may appear to be set to a high torque because it has been in situ for some time and is corroded or otherwise stuck in place. This will cause a torque measuring device to give a high reading when you turn it regardless of the actual tightness of the screw against the surface it’s supposed to be holding in place.
Good you did it all - even if it did not resolve the ‘gap difference’ issue. It could be a part tolerance thing that does not matter apart from appearance, but nice to get some expert view from Naim on it.
I did find that the Speaker did not need any attention after the first in-situ home re-torque - movement seems to make them go off, especially in the stand torques as may be expected, but if they stay in place they should not need checking for many years I found.
I also find the ‘settle-down’ after the re-torque and sound better after a few days. I did experiment on my Drive unit torques as I found on other speakers too they matter - it is about both the amount of torque and the evenness of it on all the bolts.
If one bolt torque is ‘off’ compared to others it imparts a micro-twist in how the drive housing will behave in operation and generate more vibration modes. I came away after exploring my speaker set-up as if I’d been fine-tuning a musical instrument - which it is - but more than I’d expected.
My Bass drivers were all finally set at 2.925 nM - given I’m working withing the particular calibration tolerance of my own torque driver I’m not saying this is absolutely correct, but 2.90 was ‘loose’ and 2.95 lost fine detail - in the middle was the sweet-spot. Very easy to hear on acoustic image depth and detail.
Similar my BMR bolts was at 1.97nM - less and you get HF ‘glare’ and much more you lose detail.
The drive unit housings themselves form a resonant system and I think I’m finding the critical damping point between under-damped and over-damped for self-resonance.
It may also be system-dependent on how much you hear all this - with S1-3x500DR Active it is very easy to hear.
But it is good to have the Maintenance Control of your Loudspeakers ahead. I know of and suspect quite a few more people I know have changed speakers after a few years because they did not keep them optimized.
Did re-torquing solve the issue? I had the same before and got rid of it by re-torquing the spikes, and ensuring all cables were routed correctly. I found that time that a power cable running along a signal cable (snaxo to power amp) caused the issue.
Good. IIRC I have my original bases which are of course, not attached now to the speakers. Where are you geographically? Depending, might be an opportunity as a reference.
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