A couple of years ago we were beta testing new firmware for the legacy streamers. Naim had two potential release candidates but no clear preference. So they asked us to try both and give our feedback. I tried one on my 272 for a day, then switched to the other. On initial hearing I thought it sounded a bit different, but not unequivocally better. So after another day I switched back to the first. Again I initially thought it sounded a bit different but by the end of the day I had decided I couldnât tell the difference. So I fessed up on the beta group that I couldnât tell the difference, feeling a bit useless.
Meanwhile the NDS and NDX owners were finding real differences between the two firmware versions, which made me feel even more useless.
Later that day Naim explained that, just for the 272, both versions were actually the same! So it wasnât me at all. What it showed very clearly is that there was an expectation on my part that they would sound different, because Iâd been told they were different, and because it was beta testing I was desperately trying to hear it and therefore initially thought I could. Only after a couple of days testing was I able to conclude there wasnât a difference.
This is why I donât believe in quick A/B tests. You need a good while, particularly with these more subtle changes.
I really think it helps to take a non-scientific approach and just listen for the feel and emotion of the music. Iâve probably got a more scientific background than most, and my PhD involved endless repeat trials and seemingly never ending statistical analysis to get the confidence levels as high as possible. But to me thatâs separate to enjoying music. If I relied on science I wouldnât have improved my stereo with better cabling or racking. Iâve got a mains block which significantly improves things but Iâve got no idea why it does so. So do I reject it because I âknowâ it canât work? Do I get someone to blindfold me and swap cables and make me decide whatâs best until Iâm so confused I donât even know what day it is? Do I rely on scientific method?
No, I just listen, and if it involves me more and sounds more like real music - we have a piano so a regular reminder - then thatâs the one for me. Iâve had people round to listen and sometimes they say, ooh, itâs got better bass, mid and treble. To me thatâs meaningless. Focusing on the music rather than the sound will (hopefully) let you work out what works for you. Works for me anyway.
Spoken like a real Flat Earther! Thatâs what Flat Earthers do, they listen to the music and base there decision on the toe tapping potential!
That was a nice discussion Frank participated in on the Pink Fisch forum back in 2005. I will see if I can find it. Who knows, some may want to give it a read: What is the difference between Flat Earthers and Round Earthers? I think!
"I had the reverse of this recently. I am far from knowledgeable (in fact I would go so far as to say a berk) on HiFi but do have music on in the house all day and I know what I like. "
If you try something and think it is worth the money then thatâs fine.
My antipathy is towards salesman persuading customers something is better because it costs more. Often without any form of demonstration. Watchdogâs investigation of selling HDMI cables in a well known electrical goods store was an example.
The two hifi dealers I have used have never tried to persuade me about any item, but allowed me to listen. I felt a Naim fraim was an excellent piece of kit, but prefer non-audiophile cables especially in the digital arena. I really canât hear a difference between AudioQuest & Chord Music digital cables and Blue Jeans Cables and as BJC measure better, are very well made and cost a lot less thatâs my choice. That doesnât mean anybody making a different choice is wrong, but I do think sales folk should not proclaim the expensive ones are better.
HiFi Comic subjective reviews are as bad. I can only assume with one reviewer when he first listened to a recording half of it was missing as he hears more and more detail with every new cable he tries.
So Iâm all for people deciding for themselves, but sometimes I feel folk are pressured in to buying something they donât need - not simply with hifi and not particularly folk on forums. Iâm sure Iâve been gullible many many times.
When you get a new piece of kit, anything, it becomes the norm. You get used to it after a couple of weeks. So if something better comes along, and generally it does, you like it and have the funds, you will probably go for it.
On the other hand, I have been to demos at both h-fi shows and dealers and the difference minimal or non existent to me, whilst the guy doing the demo goes on about vast improvements.
Why does the âbetterâ item cost more money?
Can the placebo effect be related to your mental state? Tired, not in the mood, just had an argument etc.
Forget the sound. Listen to the music. Not always easy.
Douglas.
Well gentleman, not only am I reading the lines and between the lines, but Iâm reading beyond the lines. With that being said, Iâm a little confused with the zeros and ones! And until I understand them a bit better, Iâm just going to listen to the Music. But hereâs where my lack of understanding has delayed my digital streaming journey:
Flat Earth System (FES) ~ Family Room (FR) Round Earth System (RES) ~ Living Room (LR)
A good example of placebo.
If you wash and clean your car,.well then you think it goes better and quieter when you are done,.it is anyway so for me.
When listening to music,.you use all your senses,âŚnot just your hearing.
It is very important to be consistent,.and think about all the details when testing,.here many makes mistakes when testing.
If you have long experience and know-how,.placebo is not a problem when testing products.
A knowledgeable and experienced trader,.can demonstrate exactly the differences he wants,.pay attention to it if you visit an unknown trader.
There are many tricks to get the results you want to show.
Therefore,.it is important to have a good relationship with their traders.
There is a special thread about this on the forum.
That is true. Iâve made a few howlers in my time, particularly with speakers. I remember only too well the Neat Motive 1 that I bought without hearing and they has so much bass it was ridiculous. Then there were the Spendor A5 that I tried at home thinking they were run in, but they werenât and once run in boomed like there was no tomorrow. But I stick to my view that with a proper audition over an extended period it should be possible to make the right decision by sticking to the music.
Are there many dealers that give extensive home demos? The three dealers within a 2hr drive near me, have all said the same when I have asked about home demos that they couldnât be without the product for longer that a week as they need it for in store demos.
If something doesnât sound better enough to convince you in a week, is it worth buying? Or if âdowngradingâ, if the cheaper/smaller thing doesnât put you off in a week, is there any point hanging on to the more expensive/bigger?
All the new speakers Iâve owned have only improved with ârunning inâ. I would have thought the main factor is ensuring they sound good with the source and amplification theyâre to be used with, in the room theyâre intended for rather than that of the seller?
Placebo as a term is perhaps the wrong one that everyone is running with here.
A placebo is a medical term that describes the use within a controlled experiment.
If I was to buy an expensive bottle of water that has been labelled as containing water drawn from some obscure remote mountain. Only to later find out that it was really filtered tap water. That is a case of deception regardless of whether I could tell any difference.
Yes, some hifi products have been held to account by law in the claims marketed. Although most rely on brand and product trust.
I have re-tapped the odd solder joint here & there (mainly loudspeaker cables connections/terminations and what not) and stone me - âthatâs it, this is what Iâve been looking for this whole time!â
PlaceboâŚâA beneficial effect produced by a placebo drug or treatment, which cannot be attributed to the properties of the placebo itself, and must therefore be due to the patientâs belief in that treatment.â
âorthodox doctors dismiss the positive results as a result of the placebo effectâ
Leaving aside A/B comparisons because you will hear a difference, how about real blind tests? If you change an item of equipment or cable and are convinced that you hear an improvement, wouldnât it be great if after a week or so, somebody could undo the change without your knowledge, would you truly know?
Placebo is all about being convinced that something is doing you good or in these HiFi instances, an improvement.
The true test of an improvement must surely be the ability to notice its absence when removed?
Indeed. But what has that got to do with listening to a hifi ?
If I have made a change and noticed an improvement, that has nothing to do with a placebo.
A placebo refers to another agent affecting my knowledge and experience under controlled conditions.
The only controlled condition here is with my choice and my experience. There is no other agent working deception.
!
ExactlyâŚ
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When listening to music,.you use all your senses,âŚnot just your hearing.
