Planning Permission Objection

Lots of good advice here, we opposed the building on new houses adjacent to the village, but unfortunately lost the battle. I hope, @AndyP, you can stop this building. Potentially I could build a block of flats in my garden (thought it’d be a tight squeeze), but would not dream of doing it - if I did try to do it then I think the conservation order on the hedge might bring a halt to it. That said the TPO on the oak tree in the field behind didn’t stop the developers (coronavirus has put a temporary halt to building though).

If you can find something that has a heritage angle it may help stop them.

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Yes, that is a good point Winky. To some extent it’s a little like Wind Farms…it’s a good idea until one can see them from ones bedroom window.

Here in Norway, this kind of development is relatively standard fair, but unlike England, there are rigid guidelines on how much a plot can be developed and you can’t build closer than 4m to the boundary. Generally, if you can fall within the numbers, your good to go.

Also unlike England, trees are not normally a critical component in whether a case is sound, as Norway still has an abundance of trees in their communities, in fact, existing trees are often cited as one of the main neighbour disputes and are quite readily removed.

What do you mean by “out of proportion”. Visually?

We have two choices, basically. Increase housing density and preserve farmland and natural spaces, or continue to pave over the countryside for low-density housing and the traffic that these car-dependent developments inevitably bring. Objecting to an additional dwelling on an existing plot is moving in the wrong direction IMO.

Canada has exactly the same issues. The suburban sprawl may even be worse than in the UK. Consequently, the amount of land devoted to cars is quite extreme in Canada. We do have much more “empty space” to the north but it’s empty because no-one wants to live there. Vancouver, where I live, has decent density in the downtown area, and around some Skytrain (light rail) hubs, but also sprawling, car-dependent suburbs extending from the edges.

We have highly organized NIMBY groups that oppose any density increase in the areas where they live. They are wealthy people with too much time on their hands who want to exclude “other people” from the lifestyle they enjoy. You don’t have to look too deep into their motivations to find a core of bigotry and racism.

Sorry winky, I think you’re quite out of touch with most views here.

People work hard to buy their properties for the most part, and I’m just surprised you can’t see that things like this cause distress to neighbours who would never consider brazen developments in their back yard/garden which are out of keeping with the area.

From the plans other rear gardens have no such developments, and I’d be virtually certain that this has nothing to do with the owners desire to do the right thing ecologically/in terms of housing density, but eveything to do with maximising the value of their plot by creating an additional dwelling, and either selling/renting one or perhaps moving a relative in.

It’s pretty much NIMBYism in reverse - I’ll do what the hell I want in my backyard and don’t give a hoot how that affects my neighbours, and won’t even bother discussing with them first.

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Ouch!

We don’t have building codes in this country unlike many. We therefore don’t have any prescriptive definitions of what might be an acceptable way to build. We do have Building Regulations but they are to do with the structural stability, insulation compliance, ability to use and escape etc.

We do have planning laws which have developed to control the sprawl of development and they set down criteria that was, and still is specifically not based on aesthetic design. They do ask for compliance relating to what you would call zoning, where something should be built, density and then criteria based on size of units and closeness to public transport for instance. And I paraphrase/generalise hugely here I know.

Design only ‘recently’ became a defined issue after a government of the day, you can guess which one, relaxed sizes of units and densities and people released that this freedom had produced questionable quality housing while acknowledging that the need for housing had not been met by the ‘free market’. This was set down in a document called ‘Urban Renaissance’. Since then successive governments have tinkered with planning legislation to try and maintain a market freedom while achieving , generally, housing numbers amongst other things. Fearing they were losing control over much of planning decision making, the local authorities who administer and make the planning decisions in the first instance, set down a further series of design criteria using their local legal powers.

Good design is very difficult to define successfully even if most people will understand that something may be well designed. That said, what you or I think is good design will certainly not be what other people do. This example is probably a case in point. Good design has also become the catch in every contentious planning application. If a local authority doesn’t like a scheme and wishes to reject it, even if most if not all planning criteria are met, will refuse it on design. Those planning decisions are then appealed to a central government department and the definition and quality of the design are argued over at great expense. And of course, planning decisions are made by the public called councillors who have to face re-election every number of years. They also have to go to the pub and face their neighbours when they have made a decision which might upset them. And that means that they may choose to refuse a perfectly reasonable and compliant design/scheme. Welcome to politics.

In this instance, it is fair to note that building at the bottom of a garden is out of proportion to the density of the neighbourhood and therefore there is an argument that allowing such development especially at this size, will unacceptably alter the character of that neighbourhood. The building is three stories in height and it would be fair to assume that three stories is also out of proportion to the character and scale of the neighbourhood. I may be wrong but the sort of suburban neighbourhood indicated on the plan would generally be two stories with a pitched roof. Again without knowing the area, inserting a three storey box looking building with upper storey terraces will almost certainly be out of context with the area too.

So we can safely say that the proposals are out of proportion etc. This doesn’t make it unacceptable hence the long discussion above about what to actually object on, privacy for instance which is strict set down criteria you can measure a design by.

And we are realising that suburbia does actually have its own very valuable character and sense of place. There is much other land in this country where development can take place. Increases in density can more reasonably argued next to stations, shops etc rather than at the foot of someones garden so that the land owner can make a significant profit. (but that has to do with land values and…lets not get me started about land values!!!)

Hope that helps.

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Apologies Winky, I don’t like sounding antagonistic, but it seems a rather polarised comment.

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I have an adjoining property which meets the requirements of “An extended dwelling disproportionate to the size of the original” ( a case officer wrote a fake survey report)

At which point I became very interested in planning matters…

The Americans have a wonderful phrase which hasn’t crept into the English language in England - a McMansion . And this case the property is definitely a McMansion

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I write from a position of close involvement with NIMBY groups in my town. They’re bigoted and exclusionary. Racism lurks underneath, at least for some. There is no question. They want to keep out people “not like them”.

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Fair enough, sounds different.

This is the issue. Who is to say what the “acceptable character” of the neighbourhood actually is? Those that already live there? Do the wishes of those who would seek to live there count for nothing? This is a common theme with objection to increased density. The voices of those who would benefit are not heard. We actually had a rule at our council where you had to state your address before speaking in the public hearings. The desired effect was clear. The opinion of conflicted locals was to be weighted more heavily than that of outsiders. It’s backwards.

A lot of people will automatically and unquestioningly say: “Of course the opinions of existing residents is more important than the opinion of outsiders”. But they’re wrong. We need to get past this if real good is done in terms of how our urban and suburban spaces evolve.

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I know I’m out of touch with the views here. Most people just want things to stay how they are. They consider that the rights of NIMBYs to have their voice heard and respected is sacrosanct. Most people don’t even question this distortion. You don’t have to apologize to me.

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Probably less different than you think.

Oh, I’ve upset a lot of NIMBYs in my time. However I do think that interventions, new buildings into particular neighbourhoods/sites, should understand the context there are going into. This does not mean that the new building needs to be some sad pastiche or copy, but it has to understand precisely the things that make up that context, scale, density, materials etc. It is doubtful from the information in front of us that it does but of course we know very little about the site and the context. Just a building design at the bottom of a long garden that might be developed because it has the potential and I stress only the potential for a discreet rear access.

I also think now, having been very disparaging about the urban sprawl that is most suburbia as a student all those years ago, that suburbia is a valuable place. Or at least some of it is. I do also think that housing is generally in crisis in this country and that densities should be increased wherever it is possible but that shouldn’t be at the expense of context etc. Land and housing is absurdly expensive in this country and that has principally to do with ‘land value’. That land value increases seems to have become an inalienable right in this country. It wasn’t always so. But then that government changed all of that and subsequent governments have not been and will not be brave enough to stop this in its tracks. Our banking system now largely depends on land value transactions be they personal mortgages or investments. It means that we don’t have affordable land and therefore affordable housing pretty much anywhere in this country now. Planning policy is desperately being used to try and solve this which of course it has nothing to do with and shouldn’t be.

And to be clear, ‘acceptable character’ is one that can be demonstrably shown to be in context with the demonstrable character of the area/neighbour hood. It is not an opinion.

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and to be clear, I have met the full range of planning councillors over the years from the bigots and racists via the political animals to those who really wanted to see a positive change and a better environment. Understanding each of those people, however unpleasant they may seem is critical to winning consent!

The first house anywhere fails this test, I guess. My house is in an area that was thick conifer forest within my lifetime.

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Understanding the context doesn’t Or certainly shouldn’t stop development. It just tries to make it less intrusive. Good for you. And do mean that genuinely. One or two developments don’t usually change that context. But how do you feel when you become a suburb? I sincerely doubt you will but you get my point. Precedent is a dangerous thing for planners and the reason why defining context and the quality of design become so important.

I’m definitely in a suburb already. It was a suburb of its current “character” when we moved here 11 or 12 years ago. But it wasn’t always. Somebody had already changed it, and changed it again - ad-infinitum. There’s nothing particularly magical about how it is right now. Nothing special in the timeline that says things now have to mark-time in terms of the development trajectory of where I live.

Hi @AndyP -

Out of interest, are you able/willing to provide an update on what happened/is happening?

Will understand if not/now is not a good time.

Have just read some of the residents’ objection. Some, obviously, were ‘loaded for bear!’

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Thanks for the prompt - I’ll keep you posted as it’s all on hold at the moment with new Covid planning regulations in force. The Town Council unanimously rejected the application which was extremely encouraging - next step is the District Council.

It’s been a very steep learning curve for all concerned (on the objection side) but it is heart warming to see over 50+ letters of objections on the council planning site.

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Andy - Thanks. I’ve just spent an entertaining 15 mins reading many of the objections. The reason I say ‘entertaining’ is that something is brewing in my area - which I may report on i.d.c., many of the issues are the same/similar.