Roon adds SQ

Streaming Audio
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The prices being asked for some of these Innuos (and the like) products are a bit much, before you pay a hefty sum for some SQ improvement, consider some similar or even better performance can be had for a fraction of the price.

The one I have had for a long time - A 2012 MM / Roon Bridge (with integer and exclusive mode on) / USB → Linn Klimax DSM/3, sounds pretty good to my ears, even comparable to the Optical Ethernet input to the Linn streamer.

Similarly, I also try MM / Audirvana (with a very big buffer size) / USB → Linn Klimax DSM/3, and it sounds even better Roon.

Another possibility is Nucleus → MM → HQP → USB → DAC or Lumin U1 mini.

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You can demo them. The sound speaks for itself.

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Yes, indeed, the sound can tell. As a forever tinkerer, I’ll keep an open-minded.

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Yes, but in the final, each app will give different sound. But I agree with what you said, the software involved is not the same.

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Hi Michaelb, Initially, to feed my ND555 I was looking to replace my ER with a PhoenixNet, and also later replace my old mac running as core for Roon.
But now I wonder: is it true that the PhoenixNet is essentially included in the Statement? In this case I might as well only buy a Statement instead of 2 devices.
In other words if you have a statement then does the Phoenix Net bring something more?

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The answer is not quite and yes in that order.

More helpfully, the Statement uses the same oven-controlled crystal oscillator as the PhoenixNet to reclock its USB and Ethernet outputs, was the starting point for the PhoenixNet design and takes you part-way there. But the PhoenixNet has a totally dedicated power supply and uses very different Ethernet ports that are slower/quieter, don’t have LED lights and are silicone mounted. In addition, using the Statement and PhoenixNet together, the two OXCOs work well together. That’s as much of the design side, as explained to me by Innuos, as I can remember.

In practice, adding the PhoenixNet makes an immediately obvious difference even before both units have warmed up and settled down: instrumental textures and separation are enhanced, become more vibrant, detailed and realistic with more palpable decay as well, the soundstage becomes more three dimensional - depth and breadth increasing and even height to an extent, with a greater sense of presence and airiness - microdynamics improve and everything simply sounds more present and involving. The noise floor is reduced still further.

So, although it’s logical to think that the PhoenixNet shouldn’t make a difference, being inspired by the Statement design and both featuring the same OXCO (of which the Statement, moreover, includes a second for its USB out port), it has significant differences and does bring further improvement. Which is why I bought both.

If demoing, it’s important not to connect the PhoenixNet to the usual Ethernet out port (Streamer), but to connect your streamer (e.g. ND555) and Statement both to the PhoenixNet outports with your network connected to the PhoenixNet in port. It makes a significant difference to SQ and not all dealers are aware of this although it is what Innuos recommend.

Because the Statement ports are faster you may want to connect it direct to the network when copying the content of a NAS for example to its internal SSD.

I honestly couldn’t be sure whether you would be better off getting the Statement first (to replace your Mac) and the PhoenixNet second, but suspect that could be the best order to take things in if funds allow. If you can get a home demo of both, that would be the way to try things and be sure. If your local dealer can’t oblige, the local Innuos office may be able to help them out. Their customer support is very good.

Hth - let me know if you feel I’ve left something out and I’ll try to do better.

The PhoenixNet and Statement together have made a wonderful difference to the ND555 in my system and that’s without the Sense app yet being optimised for the Ethernet out (making full use of the RAM play cache). That’s two software releases down the line, though Innuos can install a glitchy not yet even beta workaround.

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Hi Thanks a lot for your great input… I am getting closer to a decision! now what about Roon on the Statement? As I do not use DSP, nor any filters, maybe the lower CPUs of the statement should not be an issue and I would then use it as core. Do you know how the roon core can be installed?

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The Statement works fine for Roon. I compared it to my version 2 Zenith+ and did not find any difference in speed whatsoever, both responding pretty much instantaneously. The Innuos Statement sounds better, however, and that was vs. using a big Sean Jacobs power supply for the Nucleus+ (which made a big difference vs. standard). This, like you, is without any DSP and with very little by way of simultaneous multiroom.

The only fly in the ointment is that although Roon on the Statement sounds very much better than any other device I have tried, the system sounds even better using the Naim app and UPnP to control the Statement, and better still (quite a bit) using the glitchy workaround that lets you control the Innuos using Sense to get the full advantage of the new Innuos operating system (InnuOS) and the RAM caching of all replay.

I had fully intended to continue with Roon on the Innuos, but the SQ difference has proved too seductive.

To enable the Statement as a Roon core, you simply go into its settings control panel and select that option, then log in on Tidal/Qobuz if you’re a user. The latter is actually easier on the Statement than on the Nucleus and it remembers your password if you switch between Roon and UPnP or LMS ( which is what’s used for the Sense workaround). Having selected Roon, it will then disable UPnP and similar options (after a warning dialogue box) and set itself up for Roon quite quickly in the usual way.

It’s not difficult to switch between the different options, but not something I’d have the patience for on a daily basis. I’m even tempted to keep the Nucleus for daytime listening at work (from home) or for socialising, mainly because of Roon radio, though Innuos aim to introduce a similar feature down the line.

So far, I’ve simply abandoned Roon for the better SQ….

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I also would put SQ above everything else, so thanks again for your insights…could you then please share (when you have a moment) why the “SQ preferrable” LMS option is “glitchy”? Is it temporary?

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It’s a workaround and needs to be set up in a remote session. It may be that it can be fine-tuned further. The only remaining problem at the moment (apart from the recent Qobuz API changes that seem to have caused everyone problems - Naim less than most) is that when you select an album, replay stops within a minute or so. When you then press play, it merrily continues through to the end of the album. It’s a bloody nuisance, but not the end of the world. Moreover, it doesn’t do it all the time. Innuos humour me with tweaks when they can find the time, but we’re not even talking beta at the moment. The next release is working on Tidal integration, then Ethernet after. If we crack it, I’ll let you know. It obviously didn’t stop me from buying and I’m extremely happy that I did. I’ve never had anything that sounds nearly as good as this - or heard it.

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Hi Nestor,
If you are interested by the PhoenixNet, you can order it from Noir et Blanc in Belgium. They do 14 days try and return.

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@Nestor_Burma

I’d be interested in your findings regarding the Phoenix, especially considering you used an external clock with your EtherRegen.

I thought, once or twice, about buying a MUTEC REF10 for my EtherRegen.

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Equally, @Nestor_Burma, if you have to come over to the UK imminently, you are welcome to pop round and have a listen, we have reasonably similar systems. I’m only half an hour or so from Gatwick.

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I remove roon for serious listening now, the best SQ I can have is direct upnp to my dCS Rossini.
Roon limits the 3D stage, the layering of the music and the “air” around tunes.
Tested the Innuos (Zen or Zenith?) with roon core and found the external roon core (done by an i5 ST) sound better.
Next testing I plan is Phoenix Switch vs my Ansuz (Ansuz has issues with upnp).

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That sounds strange about the Ansuz. Have your tried approaching their support?

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Yes, I’m in contact with Ansuz’s support already. What I learned is that the switch works with Naim but not with dCS - reason is (as I understood IGMP snooping…) that Naim uses a different “broadcasting” protocol to detect the upnp services. Seems that Linn has same issues on Ansuz.

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Ok… If I essentially listen to Qobuz via remote streaming (nothing stored online) then am I correct to say that for this type of listening 100% of the benefit will be achieved through the Phoenix net? That the Statement’s benefit would be more specific to streaming files stored locally on the Statement?
In this case then it would make sense for me (until I decide that I need local storage) to start/focus on the Phoenix net?

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Hi Michaelb, Many thanks for the kind offer! Same to you if you happen to visit Seoul one of these days when the quarantine will be lifted!

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probably in January I will report back. The immediate benefit is to reduce the box count!

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I’m not entirely sure of that one.

I’ll play around today (if my clients leave me enough peace) and let you know what I find.

Are you interested in this for Qobuz with Roon or the Naim app vs the Statement with and without the PhoenixNet for both?

Qobuz certainly sounds better through the Statement but I can’t remember how large the comparative differences are vs just the PhoenixNet.