SACD and Bluray hi-res audio

I dont agree with you view that the stereo mix on Blu-ray discs are often an afterthought.

I have well over 200 Blu-ray audio discs and Ive been collecting them primarily for the Hi-Res stereo tracks, which almost all of them have the original stereo mix of the album and quite often also have a more modern Hi-Res stereo mix too.

I agree that some discs dont have the original stereo mix in Hi-Res, but its very much the minority on all the discs that I have and certainly not the norm, as your implying.

The ATMOS tracks dont interest me, because I dont have an ATMOS speaker system, however I do have a 5.1 speaker system, but rarely play the 5.1 tracks on the discs as my main focus is the Hi-Res stereo tracks, which I have found to be excellent on pretty much all the Blu-ray discs I have.

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I do find quite often there’s very little information on the Blu-ray audio discs as to where the stereo master they used came from… the exception being the XTC Steve Wilson discs I have, they are how it should be done IMO. Old and new mixes side by side.

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I did say not always and to take it on a case by case basis. I agree that there are many well done Blu-Ray discs which include a well mastered original mix but sadly they will often just put the latest compressed remaster in high res. A example is last year’s Human League reissue of Dare which was poor. The three New Order discs last year just contained the latest compressed remasters (as well as Steven Wilson remixes).

The truth is there are no audiophile record labels releasing Blu-Ray audio discs, they are all done by the major record labels. In contrast, audiophile record labels such as the ones I listed exclusively release SACDs for their reissues (in addition to vinyl of course) so it stands to reason there is a higher probability that these SACDs will be mastered well because that’s what their customers expect.

I didn’t imply that these discs don’t often include the original stereo mix either. I just pointed out that the title referred to earlier (Workingman’s Dead) doesn’t but I agree that’s quite rare.

This is true although the Steven Wilson ones do seem to be an exception. In contrast, for SACD releases they usually state this information, and they’ll include the mastering engineer’s name as a selling point.

Of course, the downside to SACD is that it is very niche and only a few audiophile labels sell them (mainly in the USA and Japan) which means importing if you live in the UK or elsewhere.

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If you look at Pure Audio Blu-ray discs, from their original release in 2012-2015 you will find that they are pretty much all uncompressed PCM stereo and 5.1 at 24/96 (most of them), 24/192 and 24/48.

Only in the last couple of years, has predominantly Warner Music, released some of their Blu-ray discs in DTS-Stereo, with the rest of theirs and pretty much everybody elses using uncompressed PCM.

I’m talking about dynamic range compression of the audio (through mastering), not data reduction.

Audio Mastering - Very difficult to judge the differences between and thus whether SACD or Blu-ray was better or worse, could only possibly be done on an album by album basis using similar high quality SACD player/Blu-ray Player, into the same amplification and speakers.

@Mike_S has done this on at least one album I’m aware of and on his system the SACD was marginally better than the Blu-ray and not sure what audio masterings were used on either disc, but thats not much of a representative sample to say that SACD will always be better than Blu-ray, or vice-versa and as you say, its really all down to the individual audio masterings on the discs as to which will probably be better, for any given album, where you have the choice between SACD and Blu-ray.

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What did you manage to find? I’ve grabbed two earlier this morning, but unfortunately, they are often in a not so straightforward to convert format. One also has to worry about viruses and other malware, so I’d rather pay for them. What the archive is good for though, are the live bootlegs. Some of them are sound desk recordings and very good, albeit not SACD. I found some Little Feat recordings that are unavailable commercially and sound excellent.

I think that was my point, that it should be case-by-case. To be honest, I’m not particularly concerned with which format is used. I’d much rather listen to a well-mastered MP3 than a heavily compressed (dynamic range) high-resolution release. The SACDs and occasional Blu-ray discs I buy are because of the mastering quality rather than the format.

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From the archive I found Fleetwood Mac’s Rumours and The Alan Parsons Project’s Turn of a Friendly Card - both DSD files. There are quite a few of those iso formats but they need to be ripped onto a DVD I think?

From Qobuz I have the first Boston Album and Parson’s I Robot as DSD - the later I also have on SACD and nice Japanese LP because I can :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:

Spent an evening downloading and converting .ISO files into .DSF files from the Internet Archive, labelling and uploading onto my Core. Worth it though because a few of these are Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs rips uploaded. Good haul and worth re-visiting if you want any of these.

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That’s a nice selection indeed. How do you handle the file conversions? Is it just the .ISO you download (I vaguely recall that each album has several files?)

I’ve an iBasso DAP that plays iso files (& just about everything else) natively through its in built Mango app. Sound is great and I generally don’t bother converting it.

I’m sure other DAP’s can too.

If you want to convert ISO files to DSF (or FLAC) you can use XLD (XLD Lossless Decoder).

Hope that helps.

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Just downloaded the single .iso files onto my laptop and used part of the software process I use to rip SACD’s, which converts .iso into separate .dsf so the metadata can be edited. I going to have a look for a few more versions with .iso if I can find any. Some are in other formats that I’m not so familiar with, so haven’t bothered with yet.

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On the Sonore Audio website one should be able to find a free program called ISO2DSD. This will break up the .iso file into its individual tracks. Sony dsf is one of the selectable output formats (mode). Once installed the executable with the graphical interface is the iso2dsd_gui.
The program can also rip SACDs using specific players set up as servers with the appropriate method. The details can be found on the audiophilestyle website via search.

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Having done some more investigating, it seems that the Naim NSS333’s Burr Brown PCM1791A chip is an advanced segment chip with some interesting properties regarding playback of DSD files and I thought it would be nice to share with the forum.

The engineering behind how Naim implements the Burr-Brown PCM1791A in the NSS 333 is a masterclass in treating a silicon chip as a raw building block rather than a finished solution.

If you look at the spec sheet of a standard, off-the-shelf PCM1791A, it is a modest, older chip. Yet, Naim’s head engineers explicitly stated during the development of the New Classic range that when combined with their custom upstream processing, the backend architecture of the 1791A actually outperformed the flagship 1792.

Naim achieves this by completely bypassing the chip’s internal digital brain and isolating its native 1-bit DSD decoding array. The process relies on several key stages:

1. Stripping the Chip of Its Duties: External Filter Mode

In a standard, budget implementation, a DAC chip does everything: it takes the digital data, applies its own factory digital filters, handles the clocking internally, and converts the signal. Naim refuses to let the chip do any of this.

The NSS 333 forces the PCM1791A into External Filter Mode. This instruction tells the chip to turn off its internal digital interpolation filters, its volume processing, and its internal delta-sigma modulators. By disabling these sub-systems, Naim shuts down a massive source of internal silicon noise and clock jitter right next to the delicate analog conversion stage. The PCM1791A is reduced to a “dumb” execution engine—it simply receives perfectly manicured data and converts it.

2. Managing the Bitstream via the SHARC DSP

Because the chip’s internal filters are turned off, Naim handles the data preparation upstream using a massive 40-bit floating-point SHARC DSP processor running custom, proprietary Naim software.
For PCM files, this DSP handles Naim’s famous ultra-high-precision integer oversampling (up to 705.6kHz/768kHz).

For DSD files (DSD64 and DSD128), the SHARC DSP acts as an immaculate traffic controller and jitter buffer. It ensures that the DSD 1-bit stream is clocked with absolute, nanosecond precision using the NSS 333’s dual ultra-low-noise fixed master clocks (one for the 44.1kHz base rate of DSD, one for 48kHz).

3. Feeding the Native 1-Bit “Advanced Segment” Array

The PCM1791A features Burr-Brown’s proprietary Advanced Segment Architecture. This design splits multi-bit PCM data into upper and lower bits to process them differently, but it possesses a hidden advantage for pure 1-bit streams: it contains a dedicated, direct-path analog data bridge for native DSD.

When the clocked DSD bitstream leaves the SHARC DSP, it enters the PCM1791A and bypasses any multi-bit processing entirely. It is routed straight to the chip’s native 1-bit switching array. The data flows exactly as DSD intended—as a continuous stream of single-bit pulses matching the original analog voltage transitions.

4. The Magic Sauce: Naim’s Analog Mastery

What happens after the DAC chip is what separates the NSS 333 from mainstream components. The raw current output from the PCM1791A is fed into Naim’s proprietary, fully discrete Class-A analog output stage.

Remember that DSD carries massive amounts of high-frequency ultrasonic quantization noise that must be filtered out. Instead of using cheap, integrated op-amps to filter this noise, Naim designs an elaborate analog filter network using custom polystyrene, ultra-low-dielectric-absorption capacitors.

This bespoke filtering gently strips away the ultrasonic noise far above the audible spectrum without causing phase shift or restricting transient speed. Because the analog stage is backed by an over-engineered power supply (which can be upgraded even further with the NPX 300), the current transitions are instantaneous.

Why This Implementation Sounds So Distinct

This explains why the NSS 333 sounds completely free of digital glare, yet retains its explosive, rhythmic drive.

By utilizing just the native 1-bit backend array of the Burr-Brown chip, Naim preserves the continuous, fluid, organic timing of DSD. But by pairing it with a high-powered external SHARC DSP buffer and a muscular Class-A analog stage, they give the format the structural body, weight, and dynamic impact that off-the-shelf implementation paths typically lose. It handles the format with strict architectural respect, letting the natural warmth of DSD shine through without turning the music soft or polite.

The quote in italics is from Google Gemini and if true, and I have no reason to believe it isn’t, explains what I’m hearing when playing DSD’s and why it is sounding so nice on my system.
The satisfying thing about this is that my ears told me this all along!

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Interesting.

I’m thinking of buying a CD player , so obviously been researching the subject.

If I do buy one, it will probably be either the Denon Dcd-3000ne or 1700ne. They seem a bargain considering the SQ and level of engineering.
My understanding is they can play DSD that has been burned onto a recordable Dvd.

They implement the dac in similar way to Naim.
(The 3000ne using 4 dacs, the 1700ne using 2 dacs).

According to the AI Gemini.

On the Denon DCD-3000NE, the digital filters built into the internal ESS Sabre (ES9018K2M) DAC chips are bypassed/not used. Instead, Denon utilizes an external custom digital filter.

Here is how the architecture is broken down:

  1. The External Filter: Ultra AL32 Processing

Before the digital audio signal ever reaches the actual digital-to-analog converter chips, it passes through Denon’s proprietary, external 7th-generation Ultra AL32 Processing engine.

Upsampling & Interpolation: This processor completely overrides standard filtering. It uses custom Denon algorithms to upsample the incoming audio data (up to 384kHz/32-bit for PCM signals) and interpolates the data points to mathematically reconstruct a smooth, highly accurate analog-like waveform.
Fixed Profile: Because this custom processing is doing all the heavy lifting to define the player’s signature “Denon Sound Master” sonics, the digital filter setting is listed as Fixed. You cannot change or toggle between different filter profiles via the menu.

  1. The Internal DAC Stage

Audio Solutions

Once the Ultra AL32 processor has filtered and upsampled the signal, it feeds this pre-processed data into a high-performance Quad DAC configuration consisting of four ESS Sabre ES9018K2M chips. Because the signal has already been filtered and upsampled externally by Denon’s processor, the DAC chips essentially function purely as the final conversion stage to turn those high-resolution digital waveforms into an analog signal.

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This is how DSD is processed according to the AI Gemini.

Conversation with Gemini

How are dsd files processed in denon dcd-3000ne

The Denon DCD-3000NE processes Direct-Stream Digital (DSD) files using a highly specialized, purist audiophile hardware chain. Because it lacks a USB-DAC input or network streaming capabilities, it handles DSD strictly via physical media—either native SACDs or data discs (DVD-R/-RW or DVD+R/+RW) burned with .dsf or .diff files.

The internal processing pipeline handles DSD signals through specific stages:

  1. Mechanical Reading (S.V.H. Mechanism)

Before any digital-to-analog conversion happens, the physical data must be read with absolute precision. Denon uses its proprietary S.V.H. (Suppress Vibration Hybrid) drive mechanism. By minimizing mechanical vibration and lowering the center of gravity, the pickup laser can read the microscopic pits of a DSD layer with minimal servo correction, reducing digital noise at the absolute source.

  1. The Audio Processing Route: Bypass vs. Ultra AL32

It is worth noting how Denon handles different signals:

For PCM files (CD, FLAC, WAV): The player routes signals through its 7th-generation Ultra AL32 Processing, which upsamples and interpolates data up to 384kHz/32-bit to smooth out the steps of the digital waveform.

For DSD files (2.8MHz and 5.6MHz): DSD is a 1-bit, high-frequency Bitstream modulation format (Δ-Σ modulation). To preserve the pure, native nature of DSD, it typically bypasses standard PCM oversampling algorithms. The DCD-3000NE reads the 1-bit stream natively and sends it directly to the clock and DAC stage.

  1. DAC Master Clock Design

Jitter is the enemy of high-resolution audio, especially for time-sensitive 1-bit DSD streams. The DCD-3000NE positions its high-performance Master Clock immediately adjacent to the DAC chips. By forcing the digital circuitry to slave to this ultra-precise master clock, it ensures that the incoming DSD bitstream is timed flawlessly, drastically lowering jitter before conversion.

  1. Quad ESS Sabre DAC Configuration

At the heart of the conversion is a Quad DAC architecture utilizing four ESS Sabre ES9018K2M chips.

While a single ES9018K2M is already highly capable of native DSD decoding (up to 11.2MHz, though the disc drive caps media playback at 5.6MHz/DSD128), Denon deploys four of them in a differential configuration.
Processing the DSD signal across four parallel channels per side averages out random digital errors, vastly improving the signal-to-noise ratio (achieving an incredible 122 dB for SACD) and drastically reducing Total Harmonic Distortion down to 0.0005%.

  1. Fully Discrete Analog Output

Once the Quad DAC converts the 1-bit DSD bitstream into an analog signal, it passes into a fully discrete differential amplifier output circuit rather than cheap operational-amp (op-amp) chips. This ensures that the wide dynamic range and high-frequency extension characteristic of DSD are cleanly delivered to your pre-amplifier or amplifier via the RCA analog outputs.

:warning: Crucial Routing Note: Due to strict copyright protections built into the SACD standard and the nature of high-res bitstreams, the DCD-3000NE cannot output DSD signals through its optical or coaxial digital outputs. The digital outputs are reserved strictly for standard 16-bit PCM CD playback. To hear your DSD files or SACDs, you must use the player’s analog RCA outputs, allowing its internal Quad DAC to do the heavy lifting.

What is this, battle of the AI reports or something :joy:

I’ve got to be honest with you, I don’t think there’s any new info here. It’s how Naim does stuff, at least since the nDac and probably before.

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Steve Sells posted a year or so ago about how the ND555 processes DSD. I don’t recall the details, it’s all a bit beyond me anyway.