Seeking Advice on Unstable Setup with NDS, Roon, and Sonore UPnP Bridge

Lucifer · February 3, 2024, 10:15pm

Very much cable believer here too. Have been the last 30 odd years.

easeback1 · February 4, 2024, 2:24am

I also suffered frequent disconnects / crashes with Audirvana via Mac into my NDS.

Replaced the Mac / Audirvana with an Innuos Zen 3 + Sense App a few weeks ago; the NDS has remained connected the whole time, zero issues. Impressive uplift in SQ too.

Blackbird · February 4, 2024, 7:38am

Interesting. I’m super happy with my current setup but always good to know the options out there.

How does this connect to NDS? It’s upnp like Mac/audirvana?

And it’s not Roon supported right?

Can you add radio channels with a link in sense app? I’m addicted to The Jazz Groove here

easeback1 · February 4, 2024, 8:13am

Yes, I’m using the Zen 3 in UPnP mode i.e. ethernet connection to NDS.

I think the Zen can also function as a Roon endpoint, but I have no experience with Roon.

Radio works fine via the Sense app, with an option to add your own station URLs.

TBH I wasn’t expecting the Zen 3 to bring a clear improvement in streaming SQ vs my previous setup – but it did. Not having reboot everything on a near daily basis is a nice benefit too.

Blackbird · February 4, 2024, 8:44am

Thanks! I see some use the M2Tech USB-coax converter when using Innuos too.

Lucifer · February 8, 2024, 9:05pm

Trying out the Lindemann Bridge II. I must say that I’m impressed. It betters the inbuilt streamer of the NDS to these ears. More realistic sounding instruments. Quieter. Same big and bold Naimesque sound as before but quite a bit more resolution. Never tips over to fatiguing but still sharp, fast and on the leading edge. Promising.

Camphuw · February 8, 2024, 9:38pm

I’ve not tried the Lindemann bridge, rather I use a Sonore (Sonicorbiter) with a Raspberry Pi running a UPnP with RooExtend. The sonicorbiter runs on a Audiostore music server. This is a bit of a belt and braces setup, but the RooExtend allows switching between NDS and Unitiqutes. If I had just the NDS the Sonicorbiter would suffice.

Blackbird · February 9, 2024, 7:22am

There might be some logic to this story. It’s well known that the NDS perform better with USB-sticks. I will assume such a scenario bypass the streaming board and goes more or less directly into the DAC. Bypassing the inbuilt streamer with a modern streamer is therefore a big win on the NDS since the streaming board always has been its weak spot in the signal chain and the native Tidal and Spotify IMO has always sounded dead and stiff/boring.

Those adding an ND5XS2 also explain great uplift in sound quality but here you pay for a lot of hardware you are not in need of IMO. This product use the Streaming unlimited 800 board which all current naim streaming platforms use as I understand it. The Lindemann Bridge II also use Streaming Unlimited but the newer 810 board so I’m not surprised there is synergy between Lindemann and Naim in this case

NDS as a DAC only with a great current generation streamer is an awesome update. I’m sure there are many other streamers out there that can wake this sleeping beauty up to next level and many many more years of beautiful music played

ChrisSU · February 9, 2024, 11:00am

The USB port on Naim streamers connects to the streaming board. Only the SPDIF input bypasses it and connects to the SHARC DSP, which immediately precedes the DAC chip.

Blackbird · February 9, 2024, 11:12am

But a different signal path on the streaming board then maybe? Why would otherwise the USB port with digital media sound different to streaming content over ethernet?

NDS white papers are quite interesting.

simon.pepper · February 9, 2024, 12:14pm

I have found this to be the case for internet streaming services, but not for local stored files using a UPnP based server stream.

simon.pepper · February 9, 2024, 12:17pm

Is this using Roon with Tidal/Qobuz? Or playback of locally stored files?

The NDS streamer board was never specified for internet streaming services, rather local stored files, initially on a UnitiServe and later on a UnitiCore, using UPnP.

Blackbird · February 9, 2024, 1:06pm

Agree on UPnP (have not tried local)

charlesphoto · February 9, 2024, 1:23pm

@David2350 Did you figure out the issue? Because I think I know the fix. You need to set the resync delay so there’s a small buffer when switching tracks, esp when switching formats. I had to do this with my Sonore Rendu when I was using it to play to my Unitiqute. Start with 1000ms and then see what works best. I almost guarantee this will work for you.

Lucifer · February 9, 2024, 1:33pm

It’s listening to Qobuz with Lindemanns built in app.

Lucifer · February 9, 2024, 6:23pm

Using the Lindemann Bridge II the sound is so insightful it makes me wonder how much better the ND555 can really be?

Blackbird · February 9, 2024, 6:46pm

It’s an amazing little box

Lucifer · February 9, 2024, 6:52pm

What is also interesting is that the Puritan 108 now works in the system. Can’t really decide which power strip is preferable now. Imagine what small things make big differences.

simon.pepper · February 10, 2024, 3:16pm

Never had anything set here, however adding some “Resync Delay” does seem to improve the stability of a playlist with different formats within it, where sometimes the switch would cause a track to skip or not play fully, namely FLAC to DSD and DSD to FLAC.

Presently have 500ms of delay, and I can track switch back and forward like a teenager!

100ms seems to work ok, but to really support the format switching, both within a playlist and manually the 500ms just gives the NDS a gap before served the next stream.

I believe the difference here is, that with a UPnP server providing the stream, such as UnitiCore or Asset, the NDS, as the render, is requesting the next track from the server driven by the Controller aka the Naim App. With Roon and the SonoreUPnP Bridge is being just presented with the stream from the Roon Core/Server, in almost forceful manner ‘here play this’, ‘now play this’ etc. And it is this change in how the UPnP stream is managed, can introduce the reported instability in playing tracks.

@charlesphoto Many thanks for sharing this setting change.

David2350 · February 12, 2024, 2:09pm

Firstly, apologies for not responding to you over the past two weeks. It’s been rather hectic! Anyway, things have settled down, so on to far more enjoyable matters such as Roon and my trusty NDS.

@charlesphoto Thank you for your suggestion. I set the resync delay to 1,000 ms and it worked! I’ve not had any stability issues since changing this setting. You are a life saver!

@simon.pepper I downloaded and ran Asset on my iMac to check for instability on the network. After scanning my library, it didn’t report any issues. I also ran a System Diagnostic on my SonoreUPnP server using http://<unit’s IP address>/diag. This is what the extremely long report generated. There seems to be a lot of information relating to partitions.

System Diagnostic
CPU Name: ARMv7 Processor rev 4 (v7l)

Kernel Version: Linux upnpbridge 4.9.73-1.rpi.fc25.armv7hl #1 SMP Sat Dec 30 23:20:07 AWST 2017 armv7l armv7l armv7l GNU/Linux

Switch Chip
Small Chip (or unknown)

Partition Info
Disk /dev/ram0: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram1: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram2: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram3: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram4: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram5: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram6: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram7: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram8: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram9: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram10: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram11: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram12: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram13: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/ram14: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes
Disk /dev/ram15: 4 MiB, 4194304 bytes, 8192 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes

Disk /dev/mmcblk0: 14.9 GiB, 15931539456 bytes, 31116288 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
Disklabel type: dos
Disk identifier: 0x0cd0506f

Device Boot Start End Sectors Size Id Type
/dev/mmcblk0p1 * 2048 1001471 999424 488M c W95 FAT32 (LBA)
/dev/mmcblk0p2 1001472 31116287 30114816 14.4G 83 Linux

Disk Usage
Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
/dev/root 14831428 1067352 13744908 8% /
devtmpfs 492468 0 492468 0% /dev
tmpfs 497076 4 497072 1% /dev/shm
tmpfs 497076 0 497076 0% /sys/fs/cgroup
tmpfs 497076 356 496720 1% /run
tmpfs 102400 48 102352 1% /tmp
/dev/mmcblk0p1 499432 59440 439992 12% /boot
tmpfs 99412 0 99412 0% /run/user/0

Network Statistics
Kernel Interface table
eth0: flags=4163 mtu 1500
inet 192.168.1.152 netmask 255.255.255.0 broadcast 192.168.1.255
inet6 2a00:23c5:2b88:e701:ba27:ebff:fe5a:8948 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x0
inet6 fe80::ba27:ebff:fe5a:8948 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x20
ether b8:27:eb:5a:89:48 txqueuelen 1000 (Ethernet)
RX packets 24643 bytes 6043884 (5.7 MiB)
RX errors 0 dropped 0 overruns 0 frame 0
TX packets 16957 bytes 2609582 (2.4 MiB)
TX errors 0 dropped 0 overruns 0 carrier 0 collisions 0

lo: flags=73 mtu 65536
inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 255.0.0.0
inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128 scopeid 0x10
loop txqueuelen 1 (Local Loopback)
RX packets 100 bytes 8969 (8.7 KiB)
RX errors 0 dropped 0 overruns 0 frame 0
TX packets 100 bytes 8969 (8.7 KiB)
TX errors 0 dropped 0 overruns 0 carrier 0 collisions 0