My dealer offered to loan one to me for a weekend.
My wife was completely against it. After I installed and setup it up as well as I could I put on the Bach Solo Sonatas and Partitas for Violin. Once she got comfortable listening I turned the sub off. She asked me what I happened. When I asked her to tell me what happened she noted the instrument and bow lost its lush woody textures, and the soundstage fell flat. The performer wasn’t “in the room” as he was with the sub on.
We bought the sub together. Years later I added a second and that was a game changer again. That really improved soundstage again dramatically, especially for orchestral music. Two subs is rather a lot more than the sum of its parts.
My older room was a much smaller room and it didn’t nearly have the same amount of window size or amount. Every aspect of sound was generously served, bass especially. I actually had to space the speakers a bit wider, about at 11 feet to enable a equilateral triangle based set up which worked the best.
Prior and after getting to C30, all that I read about Confidence series is about having bass and dynamics in great proportions, and that is independent of my own experience, so I’m a bit surprised about your take. But a lot of this hobby is relative and subjective, what would be your take on other models that offer more/different bass?
This is super helpful and I do hope I get to that moment you described with whatever magic step I take next, sub or new speakers, or 20 acoustic panels
Your insights helped me conclude, I’d directly go with 2 subs to tame the room if I end up choosing to add the subs.
I still think of Vimbergs and Focals a bit but I’m not entirely sure a new speaker pair won’t bring their own risks in this room.
The best subwoofer I ever heard was the one I unplugged, removed from the room and put out with the trash.
Sometimes a speaker just does not work in the room. I’m a big fan of the ProAc K series, I make bass that’s both tuneful and has enormous scale. I’d also move the rack to the side as it interferes with sound. I found Super Lumina speaker cable also made a noticeable improvement to bass/scale.
Thank you @ChrisBell , appreciate your insight, even though it’s the opposite direction of @JosquinDesPrez 's experience which made sense to me. I also agree with your point a 100%, sometimes a speaker just doesn’t get along with a room and that’s a fact as well. While it’s not easy to process it all from my perspective, I still think sharing my issue with the forum is helping me a great deal. Bass is not my only issue but I still think getting one demo sub unit might be a good way test it. Bass has a way of impacting the other frequencies so who knows what will come out of it.
I just want to end the struggle, I love the iterational nature of the hobby but I’ve been ripping my hair out for too long trying to find where the optimal spot is. It’s not like there’s no bass, there’s a lot of it, it’s just in weird locations and it comes with the tax of making the midrange a quagmire and the highs scatter. You see how this spirals after a few days/weeks ?
Another thing I’d like to check but I’m a bit limited there since we’re not allowed to drill on the ceiling. If I can find an easy way of replacing to blind blades with a curtain, I will consider that too. I tried closing them fully or 45 degree angles to create a diffusion effect. There’s some effect to it but not beyond a small audible difference. I started doing strange google searches like acrylic/transparent sound diffusors
I’m beginning to think I still have some areas that additional rugs can help (out of the 3 surfaces, I can’t make too many changes to ceiling or windows, but I can still add more rugs to eliminate one round of reflection).
As a long time user of C1 platium，here are my suggestions for you, just for reference only
For the Speaker
1、The size of dynaudio’s base speaker 's coil is 75mm made by aluminum which means the amp needs big current. The heritage special use 17W75 Base, that’s the professional secrete of dynaudio.
2、The rated resistance of dynaudio is 8 ohm but varies to around 3ohm due to sound hz will travel through the speaker.
So I use class A amplifier with linear internal resistance to 1 ohm which will make dynaudio working properly. You can refer to accuphase A80, graphone diablo 333 ,etc
As for naim, in my limited experience, It’s not the best partner for your speakers
For the environment issue:
My only suggestion is you need a curtain closed between the windows and the speakers, which will eliminate unnecessary reflections and make your hearing more clear
Otherwise the problem is probably caused by the mismatch between amp and speakers
As to t your upgrading plan:
we all aim to the same speaker: focal diablo eco
In addition I’ll refer to 805D4 Signature
These two are hefty speakers and I prefer use Class A amplifier . like a 3.0T/4.4T BMW Power car
AS for the source I prefer use naim stream player and I’m in the middle of choosing which SKU
You know that I do love the sound magic from naim and I can’t get it out of my head.
I think that as someone suggested it would help understand your room and assist with possible suggestions if you were to give details of the room: you’ve mentioned L shape but that us very imprecise, while floor area diesn’t help much. What are actual dimensions (including height), where openings and windows and any major furniture.
Also, have you followed up on the suggestions of using REW to find out (literally see) what is actually happening in your room?
My current oddly shaped room, major dimensions about 24 and 23ft, height 8ft one side and 8ft6in the other, had major bass cancellation in the original planned layout (the first room where I had ever experienced this), and I was struggling to sort out. Using REW I found the best position was sitting with head at about the oft recommended 38% position (percentage of distance from front to back wall), and speakers actually in front of the 12ft wide window, and closer to the front wall than I expected (front baffles about 2ft4in from front wall).
This is a very frustrating phenomenon, but it’s well worth putting in the effort. Once you have arrived at a position where you have removed (probably most) of the room effects, you will never tolerate the reinstatement of these effects. ‘Simply’:
Find the position in which the speakers sound their best (this is not easy).
Use whatever form of DSP is available to you.
I have 5 room modes, so I do not see how physical solutions (curtains, acoustic panels…) can actually achieve a good result, but that’s only my opinion.
From the picture it looks like the speakers are too far apart. The clue is a weak center image and bass. When speakers are too far apart the bass suffers and of course so does the image. I’d suggest starting with the speakers about 7’ apart not sure how far away you sit. I wouldn’t go more than 8.5’ apart. Remove the spikes if speaker outriggers are like the Dynaudio Stand 20 there should rubber so the feet don’t hurt the floor. My experience with spikes is they can sometimes lean the sound out. Toe the speakers in so the inside edges just show. BTW what speaker cables are you using?
I’m not familiar with the NC but if there is a balance control, don’t be afraid to use it to help center the image. Many get a bit OCD with having the balance knob centred but it’s there for a reason and can be very useful.
@Marty_SF perhaps you can change the positions of your set up not having glass panels behind, sometimes having no wall is better than having glass panels behind a pair of speakers … confidence 30 are very good pair of speakers , if not you wouldn’t have love it in the first place . You have the space to tweak , maybe you will get it right trying more different orientations … don’t give up the speakers unless you had exhausted all placement . You can do it .
I would agree with Opus that your speakers look too far apart. I’m also running my system in a large room of around 12m x 6m with a vaulted ceiling that’s around 4.5m high. It’s essentially an old barn. I have made the decision to have my speakers firing across the room for ease of use and seating arrangements. They are also pretty big speakers being a pair of old Naim DBL’s. If I measure centre to centre of the drive units the are no more than eight and a half feet apart. Any more than that and they begin to lose cohesion. The bass is further reinforced because of their proximity to the rear wall but pushing them further apart and the bass drops off substantially with a real loss of image focus and musicality.
What I do find totally fascinating is the accuracy of alignment that is required to get the full performance from a speaker. A little while back I’d noticed that the system wasn’t engaging me like it normally does. It didn’t quite have that three dimensional fully enveloping image that could be cast. I initially but it down to weather, power grid and other possible issues but decided to give the speakers a dust and quick check. I’d fortunately kept a note of the exact position and toe-in from the rear wall. A quick measure revealed that they were exactly 10mm out of alignment. One was toeing in by 5mm too much and the other toeing out by 5mm. I’m guessing that enthusiastic use of the vacuum cleaning probably accounts for their movement. Even at this size and weight the contact of Naim chips on a polished wooden floor makes them quite movable.
A simple push back into their proper position (with a mere 5mm of toe-in) and it was like changing the speaker. All the sweetness, bass, timing, image and general cohesion was suddenly back in the room. As good as any black box upgrade but completely free. I’d say underestimate the importance of speaker alignment at your peril!
I can’t really suggest anything other than get them closer together and hope you find the sweet spot without too much stress and expense.
The best distance apart for speakers relates in part to the room, and in part to the listening distance. Even in a very large room, there is nothing wrong with speakers only 2 to 3 m apart sitting perhaps 1.5-2.5 m from the plane if their front baffles, and such nearfield listening can do wonders as it reduces the effect of the side and rear walls being distant from them. But I think the soundstage would likely be constrained with them only 2-3m apart and sitting, say, 6m back.
