That’s where transmission lines can score well - though (as a generalisation) large ones not small.
In my limited experience I prefer large cabinet speakers (even if they are of lower quality) to bookshelf ones (and of better quality). It is a matter of taste that not only depends on the quality of the drivers. The amplitude, scene and spatiality are different.
I consider that the shelves are overpriced because they are in high demand.
In particular, I just discarded a few PMCs that I bought to save space, they lasted me 2 weeks and I returned to my huge and old-fashioned 3-way Infinity of medium quality
The current trend in passive for ultra quality bass is two 10 inch drivers in lieu of one 15 inch driver. I think precision and control is more important than just moving air, even at low frecuencies.
My recollection of very low frequencies when listening to live organ music in a church is getting that part of the spectrum through the floor and bench and maybe reflection of higher harmonics, not really direct audible sound. I wonder if that can be reproduced with speakers, unless your room has stone walls and pointed arches.
In anycase, lows are difficult to get with small speakers.
My mate in our band played fender jazz master bass through impact twin 15” bass cabinet, felt more than heard.
I like the idea of stand mounts (they look cool) and have tried a few but they just don’t do the scale like a floor stander.
As always with speakers it’s about room matching …
Trend where? The trade-off between benefits and limitations of larger bass drivers vs smaller ones used in multiples has been recognised for decades, with some manufacturers going one way and some the other. In Britain, where living rooms are on the small side compared to places where land is cheap, like USA or Australia (albeit big compared to many Asian homes), domestic fashion has led to ever narrower speakers, hence multiple 6, 5 or even 4 inch drivers! Some do surprisingly well at the bass end (e.g. PMC Fact 12) but not moving air like a really large bass driver can. In Britain hifi quality speakers using 12” and larger drivers have become something of a rarity, and not just recently.
I posted this in another thread recently - and the thread itself is interesting.:
Ahh but Is this due to shipping and cabinet construction costs? Thinner speakers being an easier option for manufacturers. Many factors at play I think. I recommend you have a read about larger speakers on Troels Gravesen’s website. He has been designing no compromise large loudspeakers for decades and talks at length about efficiency, cabinet size, crossover topology and performance. He often says that through his experience, in a perfect world, every speaker should start with a 15” bass driver like the old JBL’s. But we don’t live in a perfect world and if we expect the same output from smaller cabinets or drivers then efficiency has to be sacrificed. Then we need more power. A vicious circle. I don’t quite know exactly why efficiency drops to retain bass output in smaller speakers but I have definitely heard the effect.
I need to hear a good pair of transmission lines. And a good pair of horn loaded speakers while I’m at it.
I’m also not experienced with transmission line, but we are often more familiar with how good horn speakers can sound than we realize, since it’s the traditional design used in live venues for PA-amplification. To get that live, direct sound quality that we know from live gigs, horns are the way to go.
Even though many horn loaded speakers are quite big, they’re generally very easy to drive at 100dB sensitivity or more. Steve Guttenberg uses the Klipsch Cornwall IV as his main speakers, and in his second review about them (there are two i think) he tells how he tried them with his 2 watt Decware Zen Triode tube amp and they sounded beautiful.
I think that’s pretty incredible, since 2 watts doesn’t get you very far in most other scenarios.
I was not aware of that Tobyjug, where did you get that information?
There is a big rear port at the rear, which is located just below the mid/bass driver. When I stick my hand in it, I can feel foam below, but I can’t tell if there is a sealed cabinet housing the drivers.
Let’s be careful, this thread is showing our passion about speakers, anathema in a forum driven by “source first.”
Regarding the trend of two bass drivers in place of a bigger single one, this has been going on for years. Of course it is due to cost and convenience, but in my opinion it also demonstrates the difficulty of building a very precise and controlled driver, of bigger size than 12 inches.
To answer the question of the OP regarding size and price, and if we want to apply a simplistic approach (as it appears from the original question), I would say the critical indicator is weight, much more than size.
Another critical factor is that with age the listener is less able to hear high frequencies and much less able to move big speakers. This must have an impact in the listener’s preferences, at least it has a big impact in my case.
Give me a massive room and a very large chunk of money - I would be more inclined to put in a few different small systems - rather than one massive one.
This can be reduced to:
It’s all in the hands of the buyer, price v sound quality and price v percieved value (quality of manufacture and contextual factors such as ‘do I want low bass’).
I would guess that most people here would prioritise sound quality, but the second question is more complex.
In any case, a speaker which is compromised by poor components and cabinets is usually obvious as such, soon after comparing with a quality product.
One thing it illustrates i think is that the term ‘quality’ is difficult to define when it comes to audio, since it really depends on the type of quality you are looking for. There isn’t a single definition of quality to describe how something sounds.
I would do the opposite!
I would say economy of scale, cheaper labour and in some cases cheaper materials. Cheaper materials doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to sound worse. Most of the price of ProAcs that HH and I own likely go on UK labour more than anything else they are still made of chipboard or MDF just have a nice veneer, a nice crossover and their own drivers. I used to have some QAcoustics 2050i floorstanders they cost not much more than £500 and sounded excellent to me. Yes the finish want as nice as my ProAcs, but they where solidly built and we’ll constructed they are famous for how they brace the internals to reduce resonance. They didnt use veneer which likely shaves a lot off but they keep the costs low my mass producing outside of the UK. I still use a set of their speakers in my 2nd system, I built myself a wireless speaker for the bedroom using a 2nd hand centre speaker of thiers which is great and use some 2010’s for my surrounds. In comparison they beat the more expensive speakers I bought to replace them. These lasted 18mths before I changed to the ProAcs as I just didn’t get on with them, however they where built and finished extremely well for the money.
unfortunately speakers that sound good in a large venue don’t necessarily sound good in a home - some years ago I had a pair virtually identical to these:
- I tried them in my lounge when I first got them, and they didn’t sound great, whereas they made a disco sound just like a live band when played in a much larger space.
Try PMC MB2 (or upwards) for transmission lines.
The only domestic horns I’ve heard have been Tannoy Westminster Royals, some years ago: sounded great - but they’e huge! Of course horns for bass inherently are huge (pesky physics again!) - IIRC for wall positioning a horn going down to just 40Hz needs a mouth of about 16ft perimeter. Corner positioning would halve that. 20 Hz would double it though the length increases as well…. One horn I fancy hearing is the Ferguson Hill FH001 because it is almost invisible - however it only goes down to 150Hz which is still directional so two subs needed that go high enough (FH do some, but my preference would be for Wilson Benesch Torus, if it goes high enough).
Driven by source first? Not sure that’s the driver, even if possibly the larger proportion of forumites subscribe to that philosophy…
One of the best tranmission line speakers I’ve ever heard is the IMF TLS 80 - but this was in the late 70s… The TLS 50 were rather good as well.
I had the TLS50, the one below the 80, which I later changed to the RSPM, the one above the 80! Both were excellent (and my son now has those 50s, and my brother in law the RSPMs, both still going strong!)