Sustaining Naim CDPs - An Appeal

Well a bit different. Linn actually made their own mech. And still you couldn’t get a new one from them after 2 years.

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My 2 Arcams are over 25 years old and both my Arcam DV135 and Solo Movie 2.1 must be over 10 years old. Our Denon DM-30 is 20 years old and the CDPs in my Focus ST (2007) and Mazda 6 (2011) + the wife’s 2013 Focus are original and all work fine, as does my dad’s mid 90s Sony and the CDP in their 2010 Jaguar XF. Other CDPs have come and gone (sold/cars sold etc.) but they worked fine under our stewardship. Perhaps we have just been lucky. It will be interesting to see how the sub 10 year old Naim, Audio Analogue (CDPs) + the Sony Blu-Ray hold up.

In contrast our online music streaming experience has not been so good, though watching things through Amazon Firesticks has been fine. I use Tidal and unfortunately older iPads will not support the current software. That didn’t used to be a problem until our Tibo streaming units stopped playing Tidal through the native app. Fortunately one Tibo unit had an update about 3 months ago and will play tidal but the other two have not yet though Tibo have said that they are working on it, but that means my son can’t currently use the system we set up for him - rather frustrating. For the main system I just bought a new Dell laptop and use it to stream Tidal through my Arcam D33 DAC - that works fine. As online streaming is still a maturing market with different suppliers/formats (MQA etc.) and compatibility issues with software/hardware I didn’t want to spend a 4 figure sum on a dedicated HiFi streamer.

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Give it a rest mate…

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Absolutely spot on. I’ve had 3 Anazon hardware upgrades forced on me. One early kindle had support for it’s content delivery discontinued in my country: please update your device to continue reading. Then a Fire tablet hit 5 years and blam: please upgrade to a newer device to continue enjoying Hulu. Then again with a Fire 4K box after 6 years: This app is no longer supported on 1st generation 4K Fire

In contrast pure hardware is really difficult to maintain long term and Naim (and others) really try within their capabilities to anyway.

But hardware also backed by an ongoing need for maintaining software? Forget it. Most will just pull the plug on the customer. And yet here too, Naim continue to support the old platform that is a decade old. Not with new features but to keep it working as purchased.

Nothing lasts forever and costing a fortune can’t change that fact either. If it could, Naim would be handing out 100 year warranties. The reality is that a maker only need to stock parts up until the last unit sold passes it’s warranty. I understand some feel that they expected more. But why? The contract with Naim was the warranty.

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Zen of course you’re right, as the OP I’m not accusing Naim of being underhand it’s just regret that such a great sounding CDP might end up in landfill. I’d feel the same if I had a Audi Mk1 Quattro or similar.

Perhaps we need to get ahead of the game and start a " Sustaining Naim Turntables" thread!
I suspect naim will do what they can, but are reliant on makers of key components who are now no longer in that market. Their world has moved on. The tech is not that complex, but the IP is theirs, they are not interested in selling. And naim have limited resources to put into the issue.
Reality is this issue is heading in one direction only. And at some point will make a statement about no longer being able to support their CDPs.
But at least we have a new technology they are embracing, the turntable.

I am happy as long as it works flawlessly!
When i will have some time i may try to listen to both for a few hours to make a judgement. They are a bit fiddly to exchange so not really looking forward to it to be honnest :slight_smile:

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To the people in your opinion that have been shafted what is your solution to the problem?

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Again, if you mean the CDS3 first of all it did never cost 12k by itself. Also the CDS3 is from 2002 and almost 20 years old, i am not sure you realise it. It has been out of production since 10 years so i am also not sure what you expect Naim to do about it. Do you think that other manufucters would handle the problem better?

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I did a factory tour when my CDS3 was being built and during that tour was told Naim would keep two mechs per player to facilitate future repairs. Couple that with comments from some on here who did the factory tour at the time Naim discontinued the CDX2 and were told production had stopped so that the remaining mechs could be used to keep existing players working.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but my take is that Naim underestimated the number of mechs, both in customer CDP’s and in storage, that would fail. To run out of mechs so soon after production ended is worrying. It raises the very real possibility that some of the last CDX2’s will fail and be irrepairable while under warranty which is very poor IMO. Indeed with regard to VAM1250’s, that mech was changed to the VAM1202 within 4 years of me purchasing my CDS3 so definitely no “two spare mechs per machine” there.

I believe Naim to be a better company than most out there and I fully accept a lot of what has caused the problem was out of Naims control. We’ll never know the full story but my belief is that Naim should have pulled the plug on production earlier to protect existing players.

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Steve, I’m not aware that Naim have ever said they would “keep two mechs per player”. They have always though aimed to keep their mech spares stocked as well as possible to ensure at least 8-10 years of mech support. Considering the complications and difficulties involved in sourcing mechs once out of (very short) production, that’s a lot easier said than done, but in most cases Naim have been able to do that or more (in some cases much more).

I do recall that with the CD555 though, Naim aimed to keep enough spare VAM1250 PRO mechs in store so the number was equivalent to one spare per player. Perhaps that’s what you’re thinking of here.

CDX2 production was indeed stopped in order to preserve remaining spare mech stocks.
Considering how strong demand was for the CDX2, this was the right and responsible thing to do.

Yes, bear in mind that with their VAM1250 stocks running very low*, Naim went back and re-engineered the CDS3 after it had been discontinued so it could use the VAM1202 and thus CDS3 mechs could be kept serviceable for much longer.

*IIRC when Naim were informed that the VAM1250 was ceasing production, they put in a sizeable lifetime buy (Naim’s policy) for future spares, but it wasn’t fulfilled (told you it’s never simple).

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Its really hard to fathom how a mech can’t be made these days. There must be a company that could build them and do a massive run in order to get the economies of scale. So many manufacturers still have a CD player in their range, Pro-ject, audiolab Cyrus Cambridge just to name a few. There have been so many physical discs made over the years that they were king and they ARE still manufactured today. They will most likely have a return the way that vinyl now is the preferred format for audiophiles. The main point is that all the ground work has been done by naim, their players are considered by so many to be THE most musical players ever made and advances should help the situation. The new mech inside the Pro-ject transport was designed by an ex Phillips engineer and looks to be of great quality, instead of waiting 50 years to release a turntable, naim could continue supporting their CD players for the many who have invested in them and still keep a source worthy of their fine amplification. And if its expensive, reflect that in mech price, most who feel strongly about this will pay!

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The two spare mechs per player quote has always sprung to the front of my mind when this kind of topic rears its head. Indeed it’s a line I would use when trying to get friends aboard the Naim bandwagon. Whether it should never have been said is another matter, but it was something I remember vividly.

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Clearly, a CD mechanism can be made - the CD players you list prove this. Rega are another to add to the list. Believe they even make their own…?

From Naim’s perspective, I would expect it is down to priorities and ‘bang for buck’. Is a significant amount of engineering work and associated costs, to re-re-engineer any of Naim’s now discontinued CD players, worthwhile - given the numbers involved requiring repair…? Unfortunately, I doubt it.

We might hope though, that Naim might revisit CD’s, via a new product - or two…? If other manufacturers are selling CD players, there is a market which could be addressed. Maybe this might offer a way forward. Say a CDX2.3 or CDX3 or CDS4 - but with additional functionality, to say work as just a Transport - or perhaps with streaming…? Just thinking aloud here…

WE can dream - and hope. I am sure Naim are not happy with the present situation - and will be thinking on what could (reasonably) be done… :thinking:

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Indeed Mario, Accuphase’s top CD player is selling for a mere £ 18.5K . ATB Peter

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Do you know where it comes from? I’m curious now.

On the Project website the new CD Transport is shown as a top loader with a magnetic puck so not a million miles away from Naim perhaps …

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This is the nub of the issue. from day one Naim worked with the Philips mechs and built up an incredible knowledge base in how to get the very best performance from them - to the point where nothing else got close. The coding here was key too - absolutely minimal as this always sounded best. It likely means you can’t just drop in any other mech without a substantial amount of re-engineering (way more than the substantial re-engineering that took place to make the VAM1202 work with the CDS3), and that means a comprehensive R&D job, which will take how long and cost how much before Naim is happy with it…?

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And - importantly - is it worth Naim spending time & money on this issue - given the (repetitively) low potential numbers involved…? Which is why, to me, looking at ‘new’ production products makes much more sense.

I just hope that there may be something ‘new’ with a CD mech in it… :thinking:

Worth pointing out we do have three CD products in the current range: CD5si, Uniti Star, Uniti Core.

We haven’t abandoned CD, and we still look for answers to mechs, within reason…(which is not made easier by current COVID-related supply chain meltdowns)

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