The Listening Room Reality

[linesrg]

Good Morning All,

I’m slowly mounting my GIK panels in the recommended locations or as close as reasonably practical.

As already shown the two roof mounted panels are up and now the two panels either side of the listening position are located and the one rear corner tri-trap.

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Side Panel 1 - really needed to be mounted some 20cm further back but the feature fireplace is in the way.

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Side Panel 2 - In the ‘correct’ location - ignore the two tri-traps in the corner that are only temporarily located for now.

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The one rear corner ‘correctly’ located.

I was listening to some stuff last night but the one track which really stood out for detail, wide stage and what I call top to bottom was Pneuma off Tool’s Fear Innoculum.

It may not be everybody’s taste but the soundstage was way out beyond the speakers, a near totally immersive experience.

This definitely wasn’t the case before the acoustic treatment.

Regards

Richard

[Xanthe]

It would have been better to have a houseleek instead:

[linesrg]

Good Morning All,

That’s all but one of the panels now mounted, the bass trap will need to wait until the curtains go up which are due to arrive at the shop on Friday.

Still patiently waiting for the joiner to turn up to fit the skirting…

Regards

Richard

[frenchrooster]

Hey linesrg,
I am interested by these trip traps on the corners. How do you fix them ?
Can you send them back if not satisfied ? I would like to try.

[linesrg]

It would be helpful to know exactly how the trip-traps are constructed - I guess you could always as GIK.

I used these - Flush Mounts

Be aware that you will need to ‘modify’ them as the holes are effectively ‘flush’ and need countersinking to allow for the screw head otherwise the two halves won’t interlink. I used a large drill bit to create the countersink but be aware not to be over-enthusiastic as they are quite thin bits of metal.

They were secured 35cm from the corner on both edges BUT only the top screws were properly gripping as the bottom screws were only secured to a thin board (hardboard??). The rear edges also seemed to be this thin board.

Hanging them from the top like that means the bottom hang out from the wall so I used a single right-angled bracket at the bottom to secure them to the wall. I believe the ‘approved’ way to fix them is to use right angle brackets top and bottom but I didn’t want brackets to be visible where at all possible.

Not sure about returning them to be honest - ours were a ‘optional’ finish as well.

In the end I didn’t quite install them the way GIK suggested as they proposed mounting two in the ‘front’ corners:-

Bass builds up at any boundary such as a wall, a floor, or a ceiling. Corners are efficient because they are the ends of 2 or 3 boundaries. Placing bass traps in as many corners as possible will improve low end decay times, frequency response, and imaging.

Some information about bass trapping:

http://gikacoustics.co.uk/video_bass-traps/

http://gikacoustics.co.uk/how-bass-traps-work/

I recommend using the Tri Traps contained in the kit here. You should place 2 in each vertical front corner.

The main reason was that although there was the height to do this when I took account of where the mains sockets were it wasn’t possible to mount them at ground level so I went for the ‘as many corners as possible’ option.

I was listening again for two hours last night and still feel it was money very well invested.

Regards

Richard

[frenchrooster]

Thanks for this long response. However english is not my language.
When you say drills, you have made drills in the trip traps ?
Could you post a picture of the fixing you made? Does GIK proposes some fixing for them ? Can I eventually glue them ?

I can’t put them on the floor, as you see in my 2 pics. I would like to fix two 120 mn trip traps in each corner.
However I have already tried some absorbing panels in the past in that corners , but on the side walls. I didn’t liked the effect ( less lively sound and recessed soundstage).
But have not tried the corners.

[linesrg]

Unfortunately I didn’t take any pictures. The flush mounts have four mounting holes but very little clearance between the two plates when they interlink. The holes need to be countersunk - you could use a ‘countersinking’ drill bit but that doesn’t give a shallow enough ‘hole’, I used a 9mm drill bit.

By feeling and tapping the top and bottom of the tri-trap ‘sides’ facing the wall there is clearly a 20 or 25mm batten to which angle brackets can be attached but I don’t think that can be ‘hung’ like a picture like the flat panels.

You are best asking GIK direct as to their recommended method. It is slightly strange that they clearly promote their brackets for securing the roof panels but not the other ones. It would be convenient if they supplied a ‘complete’ package.

Regards

Richard

[frenchrooster]

Yes, they are not clear enough on the fixing. I saw they sell special glue, but I would not be able to send back in that case I guess.
I mailed them and waiting the response.
Thanks.

[Thomas]

@Rustyneedle

Broadly I found it very informative and thank you for bringing it to my, and others attention.

Can I also compliment you, and your partner, for your living/listening room and the attention to detail you have paid…very nice.

Thanks! We had a good time building the treatment into the room

@Rustyneedle

My brother and I from an early age learnt to play and became members of a competitive brassband attending many contests and playing in sometimes unusual venues.

This is great! You seem to have had a solid musical education.
I sang myself in boy choir when I was a young lad. Played classical guitar and even had the opportunity to play some Viola da Gamba. Later played electric guitar and some bass, and spent a semester (evening courses) at the Jazz school of Lausanne. But sold my guitars when I realized that I had to choose between mountaineering and playing instrument (taking it seriously)

@Rustyneedle

I think I understand both @Thomas and @frenchrooster point of view, and imho feel both are equally valid,after all, my journey is at best going to be a compromise.I want the best I can achieve of both and I feel that’s going to be a balancing act, though now I appreciate a little more of what I’m up against and what’s available to assist me tune my listening room to my taste.

One other instance that highlighted this to me was a YouTube video that had a person hitting a snare drum with various stages of room treatment, with the final stage being fully treated. Unfortunately I failed the test and preferred the slightly less dampened room, but might I add I played it to my partner and she did too.

I probably saw that video too. Quite interesting, indeed.

But I think there is some confusion here.

Music Recording environment and music replay environment are two very different things.

Music recording environment:
In a music recording environment the room interactions are part of the performance.

Wall reflections are something needed and very desirable, in some cases.

In such a context, room interactions are constructive.

Music replay environment
In a music replay environment, the room only introduces distortion and phase problems.

Those problems lead to a blurry soundstage, lesser details and reduced intelligibility. In some cases, part of the signal is lost (these are called “nulls”).

Room interactions are always destructive in the context of music reproduction.

Unfortunately, this is a fact (basic physics).

This video illustrates that in simple terms.
–> https://youtu.be/s6sGdadElcg

Fortunately, our brain is a great piece of tech
It is able to make its way through distortion and noise.
But this has a cost: hearing fatigue.

I like your avatar btw
Reminds me how cool were TV shows during the 80ies.

[Thomas]

I just watched a second time the video I used to start this thread.
It is dense, contains a lot of general information, but no “how to” stuff.

I guess the best part of the video, the usable part, starts at 16min 30sec.

It remains general information, but might be of some interest to those interested in how to get the best out of their system (HiFi + room)

[TOBYJUG]

Thomas, you have had obviously started with a design goal and most probably enjoyed the processes of understanding and effort in realising it all. I’m sure it all sounds fabulous and that you are very happy with the net result.
Only it seems like an awful lot of effort to get the result.
Maybe if you had pooled all your resources together to get at another solution that doesn’t need all the extra gubbins to sound good,

[frenchrooster]

The other solution would be to find the right speakers for the room, not the contrary.
However I agree that Thomas made a great job. Not a lot of people can do that.
I know 2 important dealers in Paris who paid an acoustic engineer to optimize their room. They didn’t know how to do it by themselves.
But the results may not always satisfy all ears. One of these dealer had finally decided to remove some panels . The sound was too damped for him and some usual customers.

[Thomas]

@TOBYJUG

Thomas, you have had obviously started with a design goal and most probably enjoyed the processes of understanding and effort in realising it all. I’m sure it all sounds fabulous and that you are very happy with the net result.

Considering how bad my room sounded two years ago and the frequency response I have right now, yes I’m pretty happy with the result.

That result allowed me to confidently buy new speakers.
Symphonic music never sounded so good

@TOBYJUG

Only it seems like an awful lot of effort to get the result.

Oh yes… As said previously, I spent a LOT of time learning about acoustics.
And the more I learned the more I felt like knowing nothing.

Even if room acoustics is based on basic science, and the math behind it isn’t that complicated, applying that knowledge is far from being trivial.

Unfortunately, it is far more complicated than just buying a few panels and hoping for a miracle.

But it was really fun to feel like a student again

@TOBYJUG

Maybe if you had pooled all your resources together to get at another solution that doesn’t need all the extra gubbins to sound good,

Well, the only other solution in order to do things right would have been to build a room from scratch.

When we bought our apartment a few years ago, I could have thought about acoustics.

Adding acoustic treatment directly during the building phase isn’t that expensive and provides optimal results in terms of acoustics and aesthetics. Unfortunately, at that time, I wasn’t so much into hifi.

The other solution would have been to buy a pair of headphones.

At some point I thought about selling everything and buying really nice headphones, a Chord Dave and basta.

But eventually I ended up with a pretty satisfying system (room+hifi).
Now I don’t think about acoustics anymore, or electronics, or even changing anything.

I simply enjoy the music with my wife and daughter.

And hope my journey might be of some help to others.

[mickdale]

He has a series of videos and workshop on how to build bass traps, how they work and how efficient they are. Also explains why some methods don’t work.

I’m going to build about 6 bass traps for corners. Works out very cost effective.

[linesrg]

@frenchrooster

The other solution would be to find the right speakers for the room, not the contrary.

This is absolutely the wrong way to deal with the problem yet you keep stating it.

Regards

Richard

[AndyP]

@frenchrooster

The other solution would be to find the right speakers for the room, not the contrary.

Sounds perfectly logically to me.

[Thomas]

@AndyP

Sounds perfectly logically to me.

Indeed, it is quite obvious.
Putting a Focal Grand Utopia in a 20m2 room doesn’t make sense.

What @linesrg points out is that correctly chosen speakers won’t solve room acoustic problems.

Smaller speakers will fill the room with less energy than bigger speakers. But that’s all.

Problems will be smaller, thus less noticeable and shall have less impact on the listening experience.

But it won’t solve anything.

[PeterR]

Indeed, I started out with my room not accepting ANYTHING under 100Hz ( from memory I had a 18 DB lift/ suck out possibly even more). In my desperation I was beginning to look at other potential candidates ( PMC Fact 12s are specced down to 26 Hz), but realised that even say a Kudos 505 at 40 Hz would constitute a problem.
For me there was only the hard way, but admittedly hugely interesting to sit down and learn about sound and, how it behaves being enclosed in a boxy listening environment- and then to learn how to carry out the remedial work, which has taken a lot of experimentation.
Everybody will be able to find a speaker to fit and sound in ‘ a space’, but ultimately it boils down to, how much of a compromise you are prepared to make in the context of recorded bass reproduction.
ATB Peter

[newcomer]

@Thomas

Putting a Focal Grand Utopia in a 20m2 room doesn’t make sense.

What @linesrg points out is that correctly chosen speakers won’t solve room acoustic problems.

Smaller speakers will fill the room with less energy than bigger speakers. But that’s all.

Problems will be smaller, thus less noticeable and shall have less impact on the listening experience.

But it won’t solve anything.

Sounds perfectly logical to me too, and it has been my experience.

And it’s not just a matter of swapping floorstanders for standmounters or monitors, but different floorstanders have also difeferent sound properties. I have experienced it, with its cost and time evidently, which has resulted in 4 different pairs of floorstanders and 6 years to get it right, well, and, honestly, some room acoustic treatement, but very little in the form of panels. How much would it have cost if I had just gone straight down the way the room acoustic treatement…? I don’t know, but the result like this is is very satisfying, and, although aesthetically I like your result, I don’t quite see clear all the space full of panels of fabric, wood, three-dimensional and “Aliens” peeking through the squeath windows that allow the passage of natural light to our work-read-relax-chill-multimedia cave.

Of course, my problem in this room was always bright room modes and trying to bring bass presence, and not the other way around, because I never had to fight in this room with the bass frecuencies. Yes in the other two systems, in the living room and and in the bedroom; there always fighting with the bass boom, until completely right with the speakers, also after several changes, 3 in each case and always monitors, the ProAc SM100 in the living room and the ProAc Tablette 10 SE in the bedroom, and the problems of bass room modes and overpressure were over.

[PeterR]

FR, keeping the listening end very much alive is key to avoid overdamping. The human ear/ brain is designed to better accept peaks and troughs higher up the frequency band. However the room response must be flat up to 250 Hz , or as close as you can get. Above that I am now not too worried, as long I am happy, that the system is still producing an ‘ exciting’ sound, leading edge in my case very much preferred. It is actually practically impossible to avoid all reflections in a room, and maybe pursuing this is, where overdamping could creep in. I don’t feel by any stretch that my room is over damped now. ATB Peter