Am happy to be corrected if I am talking nonsense but my understanding is that the purpose of the updates was just to change the functionality of the streamer’s transport section and fix a few bugs. As a side effect it has also changed the sound of the transport section. Presumably the DAC part of the streamer is not affected by the update?! Assuming this is correct it does emphasize the importance of the streaming transport when putting together a hifi system.
I am sure in the past other brands (DCS, Chord) have mainly focussed on the DAC and placed much less emphasis on the transport when putting together their digital front end.
Again, happy to be corrected by those with a technical understanding.
Yes, that is correct. In my system, it is the streaming aspect that is variable in performance. The DAC with my CXUHD as a transport doesn’t seem to be affected. I’ve largely moved to playing Bluray and SACD, along with the trusty LP12 that just does it thing.
In hindsight, I would go with a physical media setup first, with streaming as a secondary source, as streaming is proving not to be a consistent performer - not in a Naim system at least.
AFAIK there was also a mandatory security update to the underlying streamer board fw. I’ve been told that this is why a roll-back is essentially not possible as it would no longer work properly.
I’m not an R&D engineer so really don’t know. Steve Sells (110dB) would probably be the man to ask but unfortunately he is in hospital having been very unwell. I’m sure we all wish him a speedy recovery.
It’s been mentioned, by the more technically knowledgable on here, that whilst the DAC may not be directly affected, all signals from all inputs will be affected to either a greater or lesser degree by the firmware changes. I would tend agree with this, which means you can’t really use just the DAC on the streamer to bypass the issue and another reason why many are even more unhappy as stored music also exhibits the dreaded ‘glare’ thing!
Ok, I see so it is possible that the DAC has been affected as well. I guess you have tried plugging in an alternative digital source into the DAC and are still getting an unpleasant sound.
Really … ?
Not more attention than any other customer. But!
The more expensive the stuff gets the more tight the specification get. This should also apply for SQ deviations.
It is not unbearable for me - I listen every day to beautiful music and am still blown away by the capabilities of my system. However, there are tracks particularly with female voices or where there is a steely sound that in the HF range the sound continues to sound crushed or clipped. It’s strange. It has improved with some fiddles with cables so isn’t as harsh but there are some much loved tracks or moments I feel I have lost. For one I am yet to try @Darkebear USB trick but I am going to have a play this evening.
I am considering because of this looking in other directions… but I like the NAIM sound. If only there were some direct communication…!!
I think this nails the current feeling for people who have been affected by this, not me as I have an NDS but have great sympathy for those who are experiencing issues.
Naim used to be very good at communicating change. Most of us register our products with Naim and in the past when a new firmware update was released for a product that was registered a timely email would come in informing of the change and how to update.
Take the vTuner outage on the legacy products, a simple communication to all registered users of these products would have informed many users of the issue and the plans to resolve which would have saved many support emails and calls to Salisbury. A follow up email when the update was released ahead of schedule with clear steps to update and use the new functionality would have been most helpful and again reduced the overhead of support required.
Unfortunately I think GDPR and dealer and distributor agreements make direct emails from Naim to end users difficult - sometimes it’s easy to forget that, strictly speaking, Naim don’t sell their electronics direct to the public, so the dealers and distributors are Naim’s direct customers, but end users are customers of the dealers. So Naim inform their customers - i.e. dealers and distributors - on the understanding that the information will then be passed on to the dealer’s customers, i.e. Naim end-users. It’s not ideal, but that way nobody gets into trouble. Of course, Naim also have this forum which is useful as another route to getting important information out that can be read by anybody with an internet connection, such as firmware updates (especially right now with the new Internet Radio service), allowing easy Beta testing communication etc…
On some of my favourite tracks it’s become a bit of an unbearable listen as I know how good it can sound. However, some tracks are fine and with new music you don’t have a proper reference point, so don’t know how it should sound.
With the USB trick you can be listening one moment and everything is fine then, within a few minutes, you can notice the upper frequencies thin out and become a bit more edgy. Usually by this point the bass also becomes a bit bland and overblown.
It’s the whole instability thing that’s compounding the SQ issues, so not nice.
I didn’t say that it can’t be done, just that it’s difficult. Of course it can be done, and sent out to some end users, who have agreed to receive the newsletter comms. But that’s an imperfect tool where time is of the essence, and has limited reach and scope. In the end, Naim sent a communication out to all dealers and distributors on the Monday they were back at work to notify them of the Vtuner outage and the upcoming legacy release. However, I posted the same information on here even before that - it was weekend so the forum was the only thing “open” and with facility to communicate - which was viewable to anybody and everybody worldwide who had an internet connection. I would guess that Naim felt that those two avenues would reach far more people, much quicker and more effectively.
p.s. Oh yes, and I was told that users on old App versions would receive a notice on the App to update to receive the new I Radio service, which I felt was an excellent idea. I didn’t see this though as I was up to date, so can’t confirm whether this actually did happen or not.
That’s good to hear. It would be a real shame if you weren’t able to enjoy your music at all!
I am sure you have been into your music and hifi for a very long time as well but along with many others on here my enthusiasm for Naim goes back to the old ‘flat earth’ days. I loved the idea of individuals building these idiosyncratic audio products in their sheds. To the best of my knowledge a few are still about and are run independently like Linn and Rega. Many disappeared like Incatech, Manticore etc and some were bought by bigger groups like Audiolab, Arcam, Roksan, Exposure etc…
I have never been to the factory but I get the impression with Naim that although they are part of the VerVent Audio Group they still retain independence to some degree, are somewhat dependent on a few highly skilled individuals (one of which appears to be in hospital). They are also pretty small compared to the likes of Sony, Pioneer etc.
I totally get your frustration with the issue particularly considering the problem is with a top end product. But in all honesty my experience of Rega’s quality control has been hit and miss. LP12 aside Linn’s support for older products isn’t great and I am not aware of any of them providing a forum. If I remember correctly Linn got rid of theirs.
Naim are clearly looking into the problem. Granted the communication side of things which seems the most part to be dealt with higher up in the organisation doesn’t seem to be the best. But I just think occasionally you have to take the rough with the smooth partularly with these smaller outfits. I suspect Chord might have a problem if Rob Watts decides to call it a day and am sure there are similar very skilled guys at DCS who would also cause issues if they left.
These things do happen occasionally. Although it seems a shame I guess you are right to look in a different direction if you really can’t tolerate this.
As I understand it, the Naim board is based in France. If you look on Companies House, all the Directors are French. Marketing, etc. is done at group level, not in Salisbury.
Before HH or others start claiming Xenophobia, these are facts taken from previous posts on this thread, information in the public domain, not an individual opinion.
But that’s not really key to the point I am trying to make. In the grand scheme of things, Naim as far as product manufacture, technical research are concerned are still a fairly small outfit, somewhat reliant on a few key people one of which is in hospital. This will have an impact.
I guess for some people, like me, although I might find it a bit frustrating I am happy to put up with glitches which happen from time to time. Dimming screens, bleeding logos, interconnect cables which fall apart are a pain but I am willing to accept this. Note I am not saying these issues are in the same league as your current problems…
You can probably avoid this to some degree by buying your product from a bigger outfit which is less reliant on a few individuals.
The communication from Naim doesn’t sound great though. I personally have no reason to think you are xenophobic.
IIRC the ND555 is part of the WhatHiFi reference system. Maybe it would be useful to hear from them if they experienced some sq issues after fw update.
but have great sympathy for those who are experiencing issues.
