My system so far nd555 on top sounds better
Doubt due to plugging and unplugging since did system rebuild 2 weeks ago
Psychology plays a role in these type of changes.
It’s a different presentation for sure
My system so far nd555 on top sounds better
Mate your a monster!lol have you tried your 250 on fraim 2?
Oh you mean 250DR that amp should be put into fraim 2 due to it has the toroidal PSU inside
yea thats it mate, youll have a stack of no psu’s together then
Tks I shall try that
have fun!haha should make a difference
Yep - that is what I found.
ND555 has a suspended sub-chassis, like the 552 and I found both like to be higher-up in the Fraim.
If I was not using my ND555 for the prime source and it was secondary only and, for example, I had Vinyl as my main source on its own shelf somewhere - then I may have decided to put 552 on top and accept a lower SQ replay from the ND555, but it would have sucked to make that compromise.
But as the ND555 is my main source it went on top. After I changed Pre to S1 and the 552 went I removed a shelf and sat the ND555 lower alone on a medium shelf - and it just did not perform until I put back the previous missing medium shelf and it was back up on two levels of medium shelf. So this (in my case) was not just about proximity of other boxes as the ND555 is all on its own in a Fraim stack - but it just works better up higher with two medium shelves - one empty and the base level also empty.
Then - as I always get a resonance in a Fraim stack when I have two empty shelves and it was back (without the 552 loading a shelf) I finally after some experiment had a slightly larger heavier glass shelf cut (looks the same from front) to sit on the medium empty level - resonance lowered and the two shelves don’t talk to each other and give me infinite structural resonant feedback - and even more amazing it sounded fantastic in my system overall.
I context of your system - keeping the same stack arrangement all I would consider ahead it trying a medium level to sit your ND555 on instead of the standard as the larger gap from 555 will please both boxes and the ND555 sounds different and I think better on a medium shelf.
But then your visual aesphetics of the two stacks same height would be spoilt forcing you to also put a medium on right stack to match - which would also improve SQ for other reasons, but good to stop when you reach a good place like where you are now.
Have always found your advice to be very wise
I’ll stay pat for now
interesting you talk about a resonance with empty shelfs, something i never thought of that
I noticed this effect when I first had two empty shelves in one Fraim stack.
One empty shelf is fine in a Fraim stack and I find improves the sound for whatever reason - I have some ideas - but two in the same fraim stack were a lot worse; I lost both low-level detail and it ‘shouted’ at me, so had to get resolved.
Vibrational physics-wise it seemed to me obvious what was happening - it was structurally-coupled vibration. Coupled-oscilation is great if you want to have lots of stored energy but not great in a HiFi stack where you want to carefully manage it. Ping an empy glass shelf and it is intentionally very live and one of these empty works great but not two in the same Fraim stack is what I found.
I experiment and work out what will work best then leave it alone once it all works. It took a few hours of experiment and it all seems to work great and I have not needed to touch it for many years.
goes to show when your at the top level stuff a bit of care needs to be applied
You have that right - it is far more noticable when the system gets very revealing.
One ‘problem’ a lot of Active system owners know is that they are sensitive to set-up far more than a Passive system - they can sound excellent or awful depending on the set-up.
I think this means you discover things that also improve other systems but for the Active system were more important not to have wrong.
i can only imagine!haha many boxes are cables to dress with active too
Do you have any input on mine? i have one cable touching the floor…slightly bugs me
That is always bad. Different effects if Burndy PS cable or Interconnect cable.
Burndy touching floor = slow muddy low-bass and general lack of timing.
Interconnect touching = hard HF and loss of detail.
In general that is what I notice - I have one of my Burndies just clear of the floor by 1mm and it is enough and all is well, but touching and the sound collapses.
Not a fan of spacers but sometimes that can help for interconnects but never for the Burndys, unless you have smaller speakers and not a lot of low bass in the system, then they can work.
The solution is to get enough fraim to lift the boxes clear and have stacks apart enough.
All my cables are airborn except the hiline which is too long. I wonder if it could benefit from making a loop instead to keep it off the floor? I believe some do this.
Thank you for the advice, this is the same as i found with any burndies touching the floor, my speakers dont go ultra low but they are quite revealing (Diablo utopia) because of the height of my two fraim stacks i think im just going to have to leave a gap between them. one of the 300 burndies is a few mm off the floor, all others are not touching anything at all
I used to do this when I had mine - a very loose loop to take-up the slack sounded better than using spacers and definitely not on floor.
If those cables have to touch something then the least bad was to lean against the wood part of Fraim but definitely not the metal upright parts.
In the end I had to rotate one of my Fraim stacks a few degrees, not too visible from front, but enough for the Interconnect (now SL) to miss the rear Fraim upright and get to the Pre in one loose run, just missing a Burndy.
Naim have made it a puzzle to get it all to work but with effort it mostly can be made to work.
Having just re-checked mine after a few years of settle the SL Interconnect was just loosely touching the upright but a little tweak sems to have cleared it.
Some of these things make more difference than expected and since it is not a matter of buying anything new but arranging what you already have it can be worthwhile.
In what way was it better with the 555 on top? Interested as I’ve just tried moving around my 252, NDS Melco stack.
It was NDS bottom, 252 middle and Melco plus phono stage top using an extra wide glass (separately bought). This was logistical to get the phono stage on a shelf.
I’ve now tried the phono on the carpet (well screened from sound) Melco bottom, NDS middle and 252 top.
Cables lay better and surprisingly there is more fine detail but also seems a bit thin/light?
Have you noticed this sort of balance change?
I find that the source components like to be away from other items, especially transformers and power supplies, which is generally accepted as obvious by now I know.
But also I found in a fraim stack that the number of levels under an item, the spacing of the level and what was on these levels (or not) also made a profound difference to the presentation - especially for source items like the 555.
I found the top level gets the ND555 head unit away most from other things as it is not then nested in a fraim. When I used a 552 Pre in a Fraim stack with the ND555 I found both wanted the top shelf but the ND555 wanted it far more in terms of openness and agility of replay so that is what I did. I have an Active system and you hear percieved changes in tempo and decay from notes more in your face when it done good or bad and it was obvious the musical mesh as I hear it opens-out to reveal more musical interplay and the sense or ‘there’ that I like to have.
The ND555 is surpisingly revealing when you give it a chance. I am still amazed at what I’m managing to extract from it with all kinds of attention to how it is installed mechanically and electrically.
Moving to the S1 Pre removed the 552 Pre from the Fraim and I tried removing the shelf the 552 had been on to lower that stack (it had been top:555, mid:552, bot: empty) - and it sounded far worse. It looked great but it just did not grab me at all and lacked low-level detail. I had the S1 Pre in the system and the 552 was still there as a dead box on the shelf and it was enough to convince me of the S1 Purchase (it was a home demo) but removing the 552 and its shelf dropped the replay quality.
I put the empty shelf back where the 552 had been and everything came back but even better as the extra empty shelf seemed to further increase the isolation for the 555 now atop two empty shelves.
I then found there was a slight ring that was not there before and previous experience had shown me never to have two empty shelves in one Fraim stack as they ‘talk’ to each other at their identical resonance unloaded (Naim designed it to have something on the glass); I later made a slightly larger and heavier bit of glass for one of the shelves that looks the same from front but that lowered its self-resonance (the fundamental of which is the note when you ‘ping’ it empty) and it all works fine, in fact wonderful.
…I put my story here just to give my own context for what I found and why.
Yes - you get a change in signature where lots of bass coloration disappears and the rest of the system balance then voices with this for the overall presentation you get - it is a big deal almost nobody evey seems to bother with but I have always found it a key thing to know about and get right.
Most people have a ‘better is better’ approach with upgrades but it is a system-level approach that is needed and I find it is 'better and different’ works best when upgrading - or making a system installation change such as being here discussed.
The ‘thin’ effect is usually positioning of the box with its feet on the glass shelf. Move it closer to front of shelf (more into the triangle made by the three ball bearings supporting the glass) and you change the resonance propreties. Closer to front is firmer-sounding and less bright/thin, but go too far forward and you lose detail and openness. It is trial and error best to get it right for you.
My 555 head unit is exactly level with front of glass on right and about 1.5mm skewed back from front on its left. You can’t see that unless you go have a look close but you can hear it and that is what I find works best.
For example - if I had the 555 further back it is totally unacceptable thin and ‘shouty’ as someone once said. Again it is system-dependant and my system lets me hear whan it is not happy with something I’ve done - conversely it sounds beautiful and stays that way when it is set-up.
I hope that helps.
Thanks for the detailed response. Both my NDS and 252 are flush with the glass edge.
Over the weekend I may try reversing the NDS and 252, NDS on top. Clearly trial and error is essential.
I use vinyl a lot but NDS probably more.