Active PMC v ATC : The Best Things… Part II

Hi-Fi Corner
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Quick reply (1) during a lunch break…

Thanks @edo for the kind words.
Our Epos ES14’s aren’t going anywhere and certainly not being retired.
We will continue to use them and love them. Albeit, in a separate Naim Olive system.

I’ve said - on so many previous occasions - we think of our ES14’s as old friends. On every occasion we have changed or upgraded a box, these venerable old speakers have been good for the task and given more.

Including just recently, when the NAC282 came into the house.
For several weeks, we used 282 + HCDR → SN3 ( power only) → ES14’s as passive. Once more, they showed the differences, with a better pre-amplifier installed. I suspect it’s the best we’ve heard from these beautifully rich and well balanced stand mount speakers.

Differences between the ES14’s and PMC 23i speakers is challenging to communicate in any detail with words.

Over several years, we have learned that not many speakers beat the ES14’s on SQ, for less than say £3k. Considering the simplicity ( and age) of their design, it’s remarkable really. That after 35+ years, they are still a viable speaker, compared with many modern alternatives. It’s been a challenge - and reason in itself for taking such a long time - to find a replacement. (Or at least a second pair of speakers in the house). With a budget of £4-5k it was doable.

The Epos ES14’s are known for their clear, full and rich midrange. So can see how you think ATC might be a spiritual next home.

At this kinda budget, a lot of the options - including the PMC 23i’s - will outperform the older ES14’s. Just a little more music (or detail) across the bandwidth, dynamics, speed, in particular the PMC transmission line technology creates for a very full and well controlled bass. Bass was always considered a bit of a shortcoming for the ES14’s. ( Not that we felt it was ever a problem. Careful placement is the key ).

Here is a archive image of our ES14’s

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Image note : Naim NAC282 with Epos ES14 c/w Epos open frame stands

Our ES14’s are keepers. (To the extent we have collected spares to keep them going). So completely understand why you are keeping yours too.

Thanks again
R

p.s. funny, ours speak to us too :wink:

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Epos ES14 Anyone?
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Quick reply (2) in a lunch break

Thanks @silverback for your encouragement.

I would say we are still getting used to our “new to us” NAC282.
Albeit, after latest update, now in an active system.
I think we now need to play lots of music, let everything settle, get used to what we have and how it works.

But, it’s interesting how we got to this.
Original aim was to partner our SN3 with great floor standing speakers.
In considering the PMC23i’s, we stretched to their active version. They offer something more and better, compared with the passive version.

Anyway, whilst confirming active speaker options were good for future upgrades, we auditioned NSS333 → NAC332, etc. With the active PMC’s, this was a seriously impressive listen . I can only imagine - in an entirely positive way - what @GraemeH experiences when listening to music.

So, we confirmed that a separate Naim pre-amplifier would be an improvement, (compared to SN3 pre-amp only). Future options and choices being a current NAC332, or pre-loved NAC282, etc. As NAC282 is no longer a current product anymore, we kinda dived in and bought blind. Our dealer also encouraged us, with good advice and wisdom. Maybe a safe assumption, trusting the Naim hierarchy, that a 282 would still be an improvement, etc.

Yes. It is…
Maybe not as significant as with NAC332 - which is awesome - but YES it is still a good step forward. Maybe more incremental. The main difference stepping up from SN3 ( as pre-amplifier only) to a separate dedicated NAC282 pre-amplifier - I think - is with soundstage, separation, space between instruments and notes. It all adds up to more detail from recordings. Sometimes it’s subtle. On other recordings quite obvious. Making music flow a bit better and more enjoyable.

Following all the decisions, the pre-loved 282 came into our house first.
We ran the 282 as passive for a while, using SN3 as power only. At first, connected to our Epos ES14 and then PMC 23i passive, when these new speakers eventually arrived. We are only now - this week - getting used to active. Active modules were delivered and installed yesterday. It’s another step forward.

At the same time, I would say the SN3 is no slouch. We loved ours.
We have come to understand the SN3 is a bit of a jewel in the Naim line up.

TBH, would have been happy sticking at SN3 and PMC 23i, as passive. Or even SN3 (pre-amp only) and PMC 23i active. That was the kind of “end game” in mind.

I’ve always admired the elegance and simplicity enjoyed by @1GiantLeap and didn’t really wish to get carried away with too many more boxes. However, along the journey, explored “going active” and one thing leads to another. New options become available. In this case, new PMC active modules. Unintended consequences…

This is now our current situation…

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So, we added both active PMC speakers and a NAC282 too. Two steps forward.
(The previous SN3 was part exchanged for the nearly new NAC282 with not much money involved. So we did that).

A good step forward with SQ. All achieved with same box count.

Best wishes
R

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‘Seriously impressive’ about covers it…and some!

I’ll dig out a photo of my old system from years gone by. CDS3, 252, 300 and…Epos ES14. The Chesham built ones, single wired with inverted dustcap. Loved them. They were my second pair.

G

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@ratrat - your write ups are compelling reading and hugely insightful. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and images of your hifi journey on here. I’m delighted you are now in a place where you feel you have significantly improved your system by going active and upping your pre. Fabulous stuff!!

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@ratrat I should add, that although my ‘new’ 332, 300, 333 and twenty5.23i were ex-dem and installed with the Active Crossover Amplifier units at the beginning of July, the system really blossomed over a month. Most noticeable was a distinct improvement in the shape and coherence of the bass. It became much more tuneful and integrated.

Given that PMC informed me that the Amplifier Modules didn’t need a period of running in, I can only assume the ‘speakers had had very little use.

Whatever, this is the best kit I’ve heard in my room. Ever.

G

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I’m sure that’s really satisfying. So, congrats on your new system.
(We are currently enjoying maybe similar feelings, at our end too ).

I guess we are now at the stage of just living with what we have.
Letting everything settle and getting used to how it all works and how it sounds.
Let time go by and for everything to just gel…

My guess is we have put on around 75 hrs ( roon indicates hours used, when streaming ) onto the 23i’s, since they arrived here new. But, new active modules have just been installed this week. Which is another change to the system, ( also different sound signature to become accustomed to ). Our dealer also suggested the active parts maybe didn’t require much in the way of “run in”. So, maybe more the speakers themselves.

So, any prospect of “blossoming” is ahead of us and to look forward to.
Thanks for the heads up on that topic.

Happy listening
R

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Thanks. I’ll be interested to hear if you find the same improvements after a month or so of normal listening. For me the change was quite palpable.

G

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Morning ratrat interesting and well thought out approach, I can understand you trying the nc units as a future reference.
I had similar findings when adding the 282, now having added a 250dr things seem to have come together really nicely, my PMC’s are definitely feeling the benefit of the new power amp.
Glad your journey is working out for you.

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Hey @silverback
Just read and caught up with your own recent steps, past month.
Congratulations on the addition of a NAP250DR. That’s a great step forward.

Seems we might both be in a happy - maybe even content - situation at this juncture.
That is, nicely balanced out systems that have taken time and thought - a journey - to collect together.

Next steps?
Except for the obvious step of adding a PSU onto the nDAC… ( Me too :wink: )
Any thoughts or comments for PSU options with the 282 : 1x HCDR ; 2x HCDR ; SCDR ?

Best wishes
R

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Hiya ratrat sounds like we are both pretty contented at the moment which is always good to hear, keeping a balance can be really tricky when you start adding or changing black boxes.
Apart from giving a psu for the ndac some thoughts I have considered the psu options for the 282, adding a second hicapdr would be the most straightforward option but then I think why not sell the hicapdr and replace it with a supercap or supercap dr, research brings up lots of mixed views on the topic so it’s a little bit of a gamble which move would work out for the best, something else to ponder over but it’s nice to dream about moving forward :joy:.
Be interested to hear how your new active setup grows with time👍.

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A Post Script
Still think the active 20 towers were the most impressive of the three active speakers explored. Clearly, our budget wouldn’t fit their MRRP £9,250 cost.

So, here are some notes - for future reference - in case anyone is interested…
Forum search terms : ATC SCM20 ATSL Active Towers ; ATC 20 tower ; active 20 towers.

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As these were offered to be converted from passive to active - as a retrofit - we did seriously consider running these as passive with our SN3, with a view to upgrading to active later. The passive version being £5,750 and just fitting within our budget. However, doing the maths, we came to the view this was a longer ( maybe another year or two ) and more expensive road to get to a completed system and an end goal of better pre-amplifier and the active version of 20 towers too.

Since we undertook our own experiments, ( April - May - June ), ATC have introduced price changes ( during July 2024). Now that their active 40’s are nearer the price of active 20 towers, I wonder if ATC dealers might see more interest in the active 20 towers ?

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Positively recommend this speaker product to others looking at speakers in that budget zone. And if you are considering ATC SCM 40A, you should definitely audition the active 20’s too, now that the price differential is so close. See what you think ? We all hear things differently, but thought the active 20’s were the better product.

The active 20 towers left a positive impression on us both. They are a quite remarkable speaker, so much detail, finesse and control. Evidently the best execution of active we experienced.

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Prior to our investigations, very little could be found within this forum, searching on the topic of ATC SCM20 ATSL Active Towers. So do hope these notes might be useful to others considering “going active” or indeed specifically looking at the capable active 20 towers.

Happy Sunday listening
R

p.p.s. listening to The Crusaders, “Street Life”, (1979)
Never sounded so good.
We’re so happy with the active PMC 23i’s…
Music is such an amazing choice ( lifestyle) in your life.

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I notice the ATC need more space behind than the PMC. Was that the case?

G

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I had the same 20’s on loan and really liked them, had I been aware of them at the time I bought my 40’s I would have chosen them for sure……

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I have the 40A, if I had bought the 20A I would always be frustrated not to have the remarkable medium 75-150… but maybe the 20A are better!

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Good question. Don’t think so, not really.

I think the day those snaps were taken, at the same time, we were moving the 20’s around to see ( to hear ), if placement made any difference?

They are quite big cabinets. Really heavy too. (The ATC spec’ sheet say 40Kg each). Maybe the weight / mass is part of their unique design and sound ? (I remember - in a previous period - our Meridian DSP7200 being similarly heavy and their multi-layered and super stiff, rigid cabinet materials were essentially part of their design. Heavier, more mass, at around 50Kg ).

Because of the scale, the 20’s have a “presence” in a room. Others might prefer the more compact PMC designs, for domestic arrangements?

The 20’s are a “sealed cabinet” design and didn’t seem to mind much where they were placed, ( relative to room boundary and other objects). In that space, on the right side, it is rather tight for these larger speakers, ( there is a step there, down into the next adjoining room). In that moment - when we took that snap - that’s where they were. So, shouldn’t really read too much into that.

Here’s another snap, with the 20’s further back, not far off rear boundary.

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Image note : ATC active 20 towers, maybe 3-4 inches from rear panel to boundary. Enough to reach to the connectors, on/off switch, (and gain settings).

The nice thing about the PMC’s, they seem ambivalent about placement…
Speaking to dealer, PMC ( and also recently GIK Acoustics too) all suggest starting with the 23i’s close to the rear boundary wall, in the first instance. So, we’ve been experimenting with that, here, in our house.

The Epos ES14’s, being rear ported, that’s a different story :joy:

Happy Sunday listening
Just listening to Ernie Watts, with a coffee.
R

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Not sure if I’ve missed something in your write up, but if someone is in the market for the active 40s, why should they consider the active 20? I didn’t think you had auditioned the 49A: what benefits do you see the 20 having over it? I haven’t heard either, but I would expect the slightly larger and dedicated bass driver with dedicated wonderful mid range unit of the 40, together with its slightly deeper extension to make for a better speaker, unless possibly somebody is in a very small room when they probably wouldn’t be looking at the 40 anyway.

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Have you yet seen the current prices on these two products, since ATC changed pricing in July ?

It’s a simple idea…
Our ears preferred the active 20 towers.
FWIW, Farthings-cat has said something similar above.
But, now the cost difference between these two ATC speakers is narrowed, it may also be worth looking at the active 20 towers too, if you’re in that budget space.

(Also, limited experiences of active 20 towers are previously shared on this forum, to date. Which was another reason for highlighting capabilities of this speaker, to others ).

As always - best advice - listen and decide.

Just listening to Joe Sample “ Night Flight”, from Sample This, (1997).
Having so much fun. Piano never sounded this good.

BW
R

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Morning ratrat you had me reminiscing when you mentioned listening to “street life”, one of the tracks we used for testing back in the day along with the Carpenters, showing my age now.
As you pointed out regarding the active 20’s there seems to be very little on the forum about them but what there is seems very positive, guessing the more popular and cheaper 40a steal the lime light.
I recently heard the 50 actives and found them very nice, I can see why they are so highly rated guessing the 20a may have a similar balance to their sound.
The ATC’s are definitely on my list of speakers to audition when the time is right.
A quick mention about room placement with the PMC’s, my experience with the 26’s are they are very accommodating regarding distance to rear walls, mine are approx 10cm away and work fine in our room.
Another great account of your journey :+1:

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Yes, and that was my point! The 40A is less expensive than the 20 a tower. On paper at least the 40A sounds better, And I didn’t think you had auditioned the 40A, or did I miss that you auditioned at the dealer, just not at home?

I have long had the impression that the 40A has long been deliberately marketed as a very cost-effective way into ATC, and I assume their sales justifies their pricing. That together with its probable performance is why I question what would make somebody in the market for the 40 go for the 20.

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Good to hear.
That’s what we’ve been told by others ( that maybe know best) too.

So that’s exactly where we are for now.
Thanks

And - yes - it’s always about the music :+1:
R

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