Hi @newcomer I’ve been reading this thread and it occurs to me that you’ve not got a clear understanding of the demands of your speaker at higher volumes on your amplifier.
It strikes me that you’re missing the effect of the interaction between the speakers and amp with more dynamic music. There was a video a few years ago that demonstrates this beautifully.
The Harbeth 40.1 is a big stand mount speaker which according to stereophile, (https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-m401-loudspeaker-measurements) “is easy to drive in terms of its demand for current. The impedance drops below 6 ohms only in the middle of the midrange, and then only for a short while” and according to Harbeth anything that can drive greater than 50watts into 8ohms is recommended to pair with them.
Well, as the following video showed, that was true if you were listening to dynamically light chamber music, but a completely different situation if you wanted to listen to high dynamics music such as Finnish Techno.
The video demonstrates the same system, same amplification, same speakers, same volume setting, but different music and watch how the different types of music place a completely different load on the amplifier set-up. After watching this, you will see why the members of this forum were telling you what they were telling you about so called ‘mullet systems’.
Thing is Naim don’t follow that rule at all since no Naim amp goes higher than modest 135W. If that was a rule the amount of speakers and music you could play with naim would be extremely limited?
I’ve heard the 40s with a 2x400w amp into 6ohm and a Supernait 1. The bigger amp made them sing and feel really relaxed. I would really like to compare that with say Nap250 or 300 to understand if naim philosophy really is true.
As regards Naim being able to drive speakers with big dynamics. That’s what defines them. PRaT (Pace, Rhythm and Timing) means that they have big ass transformers in them capable of very large va swings and for example with the likes of the 300DR (90 watts / channel into 8ohms [500va Transformer]) also able to drive speakers down at 2ohms (which would be somewhere around 360watts per channel) for long periods of time. https://www.naimaudio.com/product/nap-300
I’d imagine that a 500 or a Statement would happily wake up anything at any volume.
So I think they fall exactly into the same discussion and actually reinforces Naim’s design decisions and that a Naim ‘watt’ isn’t quite like other peoples…
Very interesting, something that confirms my intuitions already consolidating in knowledge, because it is never too late to learn if there is goodwill, even if sometimes it is stumbles…
Another saying around here is that nothing happens by tripping and falling as long as you get up and learn from the mistake.
1- if you want a system which works optimally from Day1 and you’re satisfied with that, then you need to follow the ‘balanced’ approach with monies allocated evenly/weighted to source components. I remain of the view that a system with a better quality front-end and amps driving in to relative modest quality speakers will outperform the opposite.
2- if you want to system-build over time, start with the source and work towards the speakers as the end purchase. Many of us around these parts have struggled with solving the room/amplifier/speaker challenge.
As Richard identifies, doing things the other way around can be very frustrating and expensive.
One thing I’ve enjoyed with upgrading is how my speakers have responded. Firstly going up the amp from Nova to SN2/NDX2, then adding the XPS DR to improve the source. Each time, the speakers have delivered more. Getting the system synergy balanced is the key, and where the dealer earns their money I think.
Unfortunately, that path has already been tested in the room, with combinations of 4 different pairs of speakers and 4 different electronics since 2014. Until finally, find the speakers that satisfactorily solve the setting to the location and room modes, which are these ProAc K6. I think that now, with the NDX2 satisfactory, all is needed is to solve the amplification issue, which as I feel has not worked with the Naim integrateds. The room really has a lot of volume, and these are the first speakers that solve perfectly; the electronics matter is proving complicated because there are many constraints, not only budgetary, but also space, decoration, ando more. I finally think that nothing that can’t be solved with patience and money…
On the other hand, fortunately, there is also life beyond Naim. We’ll see…
In your earlier post - you mentioned about learning and i guess we all learn and that is very true.
I have learnt much from this thread too.
But then again - in your last time of the post to which i am quoting to - you mention Naim - rather - life beyond Naim.
But the point here is that its not the brand Naim but an amplifier - speaker mismatch leading to the program material not being played satisfactorily.
As @frenchrooster says - the K6 are probably good speakers and you will find your goal once you have a matching amplifier capable of standing foot to foot and head to head and lip to lip
One of the learnings is to have a home demo ( for such expensive purchases ) and i hope you will have the opportunity to get a home demo for a week atleast before you commit your hard earned money to it.
The speakers dont know the brand badge they wear and so do the amps… so their matching should be brand agnostic - given high material quality, enough power etc… and thoughtful design.
There are plenty of great integrateds out there.
You could look into the Devialet Expert pro 220 set up. They offer a customisable interface for a number of speakers called SAM. They offer one for the Proac K6.
You could swap out the NDX2 and SN3 for one shiny box.
Will sound different at those low volumes, but should drive those speakers and room better at loud volume. Worth an audition perhaps.
Naim and Proac is a good match. If the OP wants to stay with a Naim sound, something like a 282/250 second hand would be a better combo to benefit from the K6, specially in a big room. It’s near the price of a new SN 3.
Yes, you’re right. But there are two issues that take me away from the rest of the Naim range:
On the one hand, it is fundamentally a matter of principle. As I point out in my profile, for me it is more a question of music as a cultural expression of rapprochement and cohesion than of the devices as mere means for that purpose; melomaniac but not audiophile. In this sense, I am convinced that, even if luck looked at me and a good lottery brought me the wealth that I have never enjoyed, I would never dedicate it to an escalation in electronic devices, nor cars, nor watches, nor…; my priorities then would be radically different, there are too many people having a hard time who could well get ahead with reasonable means, such as training, education, business and work projects…
On the other hand, even outside the principles, I do not contemplate the way of the separates. In this sense, an escalation that forces me to complexity and to transform a multifunctional room, in which many activities are done in addition to listening to music, in a dedicated room with various rack furniture to house a long series of black boxes, cables and power supplies, it’s just not for me.
I know that, as much as it incorporates SAM system, Devialet doesn’t get along quite well with ProAc.
At this point, I very much doubt that the NAP 250 DR can give itself as to drive these speakers with ease in this room. In addition, besides the risk, we are in the same thing: I would need to introduce a dedicated rack and modify the furniture, and what do I do with the magnificent subwoofer needed to support the speakers in this immense room…?
It seems that this week I’m going to be able to have Musical Fidelity NuVista 600 to demo it in the system.
It’s 10 k , but can drive with explosive dynamics all speakers. I have already heard it and was impressed.
The nu vista is much more on the soft and polite sound.
Thanks, FR; but It doesn’t have enough Ins, nor does it have Pre Out.
Did you hear it with ProAc’s…?
A friend direct experience, who acquired the K6 and initially installed them with his Devialet amplification (I don’t remember exactly which model): we were listening at, it was the first time I heard the K6, and to me it didn’t sound bad in its configuration but also nothing spectacular to justify the price and the level, even though he was not at all satisfied; finally he decided to switch to valves, monoblocks, EAR Yoshino, I think 509 Mono; we heard again…, woooow! I fell in love with the K6, which go magnificent with valves, particularly with EAR, but due to different reasons I don’t want to go down the valve path.
For now I’m going to try the NuVista 600; MF has always been an optimal match with ProAc. I’ll hear them and decide something…
The OP could contact the guys from that video. They once were a Naim dealer and they must have an opinion too. I bought my very first Naim amp from them actually. They are these days in way too posh gear to my taste. Devialet, Meridian etc … not my cup of tea. But they are nice guys.
Why do you want a pre out? I heard the ear too and love them. I have the ear 912 myself. The ear v12 is fantastic for the price. 7k.
I heard the Jeff Rowland with Sonus Faber.
The musical fidelity with other speakers…
Thanks, @TOBYJUG; it would really be great if things started to fit together.
Because I have in the system a SVS SB 16 ULTRA sub that is great for the speakers and the room below 32 Hz, which I don’t want to give up; it would also be mis-selling something that’s out of the way.
Sonus Faber is very distant from ProAc, I’m not going to say in the antipodes but very distant, and does not live up too much to their reputation outside of classical music, where they really have few rivals.
Again, the amplifier-speakers match is fundamental, and what with some can be glory, with others is hell; the best example my ex combo Exposure 3010S2, with Neat or Tannoy harmonizes very well, with ProAC, in particular the K6, hell.