Bi-amping with Supernait 2 plus Hi-CAP PSU and NAP250 DR

I won’t repeat what I wrote on 24 July but the simple fact is that the Supernait is not up to your demanding speakers, so you really shouldn’t be surprised. The issue is not with the Naim, but with your choices. Mullets are rarely successful and this is simply another example. Hungry mouths need feeding.

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What with those speakers should create such problems you mean? Ok if they would present and impedance load down below 2 ohms maybe but I’m sure they don’t?

Sounds like my adult children HH ! ATB Peter

BTW I have never found that bi-amping brings much to the table, active yes but not bi-amping. ATB Peter

Yes, too paternalistic for my taste.

Very displeased with the situation: SN2, although it also showed its limits, at least worked perfectly and raised the volume reasonably without problems, with really nice SQ; the SN3, besides that the sound has not finished me fully convincing, incapable and minimally maintaining the type in the face of the slightest innuendo of volume. I don’t know if it will be so by design and construction or is my unit which, again, may be defective. But really disappointed.

Greetings to the forum.

@newcomer - Your posts suggest, with the focus on Watts (noting the similar thread running about Naim watts), that you don’t perhaps recognise what the term ‘demanding speaker’ means as regards amplifier matching. Much of what you need to understand/know is highlighted on the other thread.

The speakers you are using can be operated by many amps - but that doesn’t mean to say they can be operated well and the performance envelope of many amps will be limited (usual signs are poor bass, amps running very/over hot, shut-downs as protections circuits cut in).

From what you describe, the SN3 just doesn’t match to them well - and with the volume pot at ~10 o/c and fed via a high output source (CD/Network player), the SN3 will already be quite a way up its output curve.

As a general rule, Naim speakers prefer 8-ohm loads much better than problematic 4-ohm loads (which can dip far lower), hence why Focal Sopras are suggested as a partner, as the latter are easy to drive/efficient and are 8-ohmers.

I’ve had 4-ohm Dynaudios and they were also a challenge to drive well. Even an Olive NAP250 shut down at ~11 o/c on the dial - it was loud! I suspect the Proacs you have are even more demanding on the amplifier in terms of sucking current and presenting the amp with highly varying loads during replay.

It’s a fallacy that Naim’s more powerful amps (in particular the 300 & 500) are all about more power. They aren’t. Yes, they have the ability to deliver more power (Watts and transient power) by virtue of having larger power supplies & more electronics but with this they also exert a greater control over the speaker cones = better replay, and can tolerate/handle the much more challenging loads presented by some speakers.

If you are using Watts alone as your reference point for amp/speaker matching then, respectfully, you need to revisit your thinking.

It’s easier to damage a speaker through driving it with an under-powered amplifier (in relative terms) than a higher powered amp driving in to lesser speakers - the latter, generally, also offers better replay.

And until you achieve the proper amp/speaker matching, you will not appreciate what the speaker can deliver (e.g. tighter bass, better high-end, music is better resolved and transients are much better presented - to name but a few things).

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Thank you, @HappyListener; that’s what I’m at.

My view is that you should look for another Pre-Amp/Amplifier set-up which can handle the speakers (assuming these are to stay?) - and, I suspect, you will be surprised with the improved quality of the replay when you get to this point.

If the speakers are this challenging for an SN3, then I strongly suspect the answer will not be by adding an NAP250 in bi-amping mode - and you may need to look for an amplifier which is more powerful in terms of pure current management & control e.g. min. a NAP300(DR), if you want to stay with Naim. To optimise, you’d also need a matching pre-amp e.g. min 282/252 (with requisite power supplies) i.e. not a small budget.

And you must try before you buy.

You are not alone in facing such issues in matching kit - it is one of things which many of us have encountered on our h-fi journey.

…and there are many speakers out there which, by the look of the spec’s (and manu’s recommended power requirements), appear to be fine for use with most amps. Unfortunately, this often isn’t the case. Some of the large B&W speakers of several years ago would play OK with many amps at low-ish levels but when the volume dial was turned many amps wilted, and it turned out that the speakers really needed big current-pumping amps (Krells and alike) to perform at their best, as this is what B&W used in their design and testing.

Unfortunately, it is possible to become a hostage to the love of a particular speaker.

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But why the SN 2 worked better with the same speakers? The SN 3 is not very different?

In my setup it is quite different. Sn2 muscles and warmth. Sn3 delicate and balanced.

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It could be a number of things and by my reading the SN2 didn’t work ‘fully’?

e.g. could be the type of music played. As I found out recently, some benign sounding CDs have a great deal of hidden energy in terms of bass.

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I wonder if the SN 3 of the OP has not a problem…normally it should have a bit more ease vs the SN 2, not the contrary.
However I agree with you, the K6 are too demanding for it.

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Well I experience the same thing in that SN2 feel a bit more powerful than SN3.

I am seriously thinking in the Musical Fidelity NuVista 600 (200W / channel into 8 Ohms) option: a quality and high power dual mono hybrid integrated, and traditionally a nice synergy with ProAc.

Let’s see…

Cheers.

Unfortunately yours is a familiar tale that I’ve heard many times before, particularly when I was Naim’s customer service manager many years ago; customer falls in love with super duper speakers st unfortunately eat up the lions share of what they can afford, but they tell themselves they will grow into them as funds permit, but for now, the burning question is… what’s the minimum requirement to get them to perform satisfactorily. The answer wAs rarely very palatable - it usually meant a far bigger investment in source and amp. It was getting things back to front and inevitably led to successive disappointments and, in a number of cases I fear it ultimately led to losing interest, when doing things the right way round would have saved much aggro and allowed them to both enjoy the ride as well.

Newcomer, I really hope things work out for you. Sooner, rather than later…

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Thank you, @Richard.Dane.

Yes, it’s really getting slightly more complicated than I initially expected in this world of limited resources…

I appreciate your honest wish.

A special greeting.

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But is it really a normal outcome that Naim amps should go into protection mode if there are not faults anywhere? I mean it’s not a strange load by any means compared to everything else out there. Sure if the impedance would be down to like 1-2 ohms getting close to short circuit but I’m sure it’s not in this and most other cases today? To me having 2 amps that both show same behaviour means highly likely the problem is elsewhere. Not with the amps or tough speaker. Rather a defect somewhere causing this to happen. I checked some impedances on proac (not this one) and they all stay around 4ohms or higher. Should start to sound really bad from the amp before shutting down I assume.

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Very Possibly. But without having eyes on the scene it’s very difficult to ascertain what’s happening. This is where a good dealer in invaluable.

But the two have not had the same behavior, nor similar: the SN2 worked well, good SQ, but with limits, in the form of hard-compressed sound and clipping, as soon as you arrived at 10-11 o’clock of the pot, until one day it had a significant fall, without us having so far come to know whether by a capacitor with some leakage or by an unnoticeable general instability of the electricity network (I was inclined to the latter); the SN3 has not worked really well at any time, entering overcurrent and/or thermal protection as soon as the pot began to exceed 10 o’clock, without us even knowing whether it is by the device design and manufacture or by failure of the unit in question (I am inclined to the former)

In any case, at this point I am clear that neither are the right amplifiers for these speakers, even less in this room; and that I must admit that Richard, and some others, were right; and that, since I do not contemplate the way of the separated, neither in other brands (for simplicity and space) nor, less, in Naim (also because of the fortune that it would entail to solve, which I believe would not be less than the 500 series), I will have to try to find a reasonable solution with any quality and greater power integrated amplifier that can fit and match in/with the system.

This must be in the UK, because here, going to your house to make you, or reviewing, the installation is unthinkable; really don’t seem interested in anything else out of the sale and collect the money. In fact, we have a saying, which I don’t know if in English will make too much sense: “a lot to promise to get in, and, once in, nothing from promised”.

Anyway…