No!
Because my practical experience has no bearing at all on whether something is fact or not. Zero. Nill. Nada.
But if you must know I have plenty of experience using my system to listen to music. Thatâs all that matters to me. I care little about using music to listen to my system. 
Ok, not in science, but in audio.
Science/engineering is based on well researched and peer reviewed factsâŠaudio anecdotes are not.
ps. I do electronic engineering for a livingâŠI also have some fine audio systems from Naim, Linn & Meridian,
A foot in both camps, as it wereâŠ
3 Likes
Not even in audio do multiple uncontrolled anecdotal observations establish or define the truth.
Epistemological truth however is a very difficult concept for which to produce a reliable definition, viz:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth.
1 Like
I also (Naim,Linn),.and also in the tube-amp world.
So I have three feets 
.
I know a lot about this,.I have friends who is very famous Audio-engineers.
And who has their designs on the world-stage.
But we seem to be talking about âapples and pearsâ here,.as we say in Sweden.
Read my long post again,.and you might understand what Iâm talking about.
/Pederđ
This is not how you define a fact - otherwise various Witch-trials where a large mob agree on something then it is a âfactâ - no.
Also peer-review by an elite group does not make something a fact or not a fact - it is just a select opinion.
If a large number of people think something - it may be illusion and false, no matter how much they want it to be true.
One person who eventually proves the veracity of a fact disputed, ignored and derided by most people - if eventually he can prove by repeat exposition of the phenomena to people - then that one person was right and everyone else was wrong.
Numbers of believers mean nothing - other than that one should, perhaps, see where that opinion comes from before dismissing it. It can be that a lot of people observe a real unknown phenomena and map it onto something that cannot be causing it but they believe it is - the phenomena is real, but the descriptions of how it is happening and what is behind it are not correct.
Something along these lines is my view on âburn-inâ or ârun-inâ. As a Physicist with considerable practical engineering design experience I used to mock people and think they were deluding themselves about all sorts of things - until gradually I heard them for myself - they were there - what exactly was causing them I did not know - I could speculate, but in the end I wanted the musical end-result - so I put my pondering on the physics processes that may be causing it on the back-burner. I donât know, I can speculate - but no point at this stage.
So âburn-inâ is a widely observed and dealt with effect or phenomena well known by Dealers and a lot of HiFi Customers. For those people it is a fact. But it is not a scientific fact, as it has had no credible exposition of what it is - a lot of part hypothesis of what may be happening, but no definitive work that proves it scientifically - IMO.
But it still exists - for me I experience it. Even though for a long time I did not want to believe it existed.
DB.
8 Likes
Here is a post from the Blue Jeans Ethernet Cables thread from which an interesting set of scientific hypotheses could be developed:
"OK hereâs some speculation for you.
From a blog on the Belden web site.
âwhen we make cables for high frequencies, we spend a lot of time on the surface of the wire.Thatâs the skin. And at high frequencies, thatâs the only thing working. So we do a lot of things (many of which are âtrade secretsâ) to make sure the surface of that wire is as perfect as we can possibly make it.â
As perfect as possible , then itâs covered in polymer insulation. That gives us two surfaces where the signal and any high frequency noise is conducted. The metal one is treated in some way judging from the above but it will have some impurities designed or otherwise. Thereâs usually something reactive in a polymer, chains have ends and probably there will be some sort of initiator for the polymerisation reaction. Migration within the polymer is also likely. Add an electric current and anything with a charge will be affected and any free radicals will also feel the force. If it takes time for this lot to settle into itâs in use conditions I wouldnât be at all surprised."
3 Likes
Thereâs a very important initial caveat in that extract:
âwhen we make cables for high frequenciesâŠâ
Neither the 20kHz of the audio spectrum nor even the 30MHz of 100Base-T Ethernet are exactly high frequencies where cables are concerned.
In respect of migration of chemical species or chain ends, you are postulating electrophoresis as a mechanism - well the electric field strengths about which we are concerned here are far too weak to be significant, especially given the molecular binding forces and the viscosity of the medium (i.e. the polymer).
3 Likes
I have read your long post.
I find therein a lot of âaudio anecdotesâ.
5 Likes
Why a fact have to be considered only as a scientific fact? Or should we say « general understanding « or « common agreement « .
If several thousands of audiophiles in the world, with different systems, different mainsâŠare , in big majority, observing burn in phenomenon in Ethernet cables, itâs not anymore anecdotic.
Oh well - thanks Xanthe - in that case itâs utterly impossible that cables could change when they first conduct electricity in any way that produces different sounds - so your theory is proven that burn in is entirely delusion on the part of everyone who hears those changes.
3 Likes
And thousands of anti-vaxers think that vaccinations are bad. A large number of people thing that the world is flat. A while ago everyone thought that cholera was spread through miasma - bad air. Only one or two thought it was from the water supply. IT was once thought by almost everyone that the earth was the centre of the universe.
Scientific fact is not a matter of counting votes. Arguably, of course, we have no scientific facts - we can only approach the facts, but we get very close when we use the scientific method. When we donât use the scientific method, but instead go for the most popular - or, indeed, a popular - consensus, we very often get it wrong.
We can measure things quite accurately and reliably - far more accurately and reliably than our ears and brains can. It would be relatively simple to measure the output of an audio system using brand new cables versus ones that had been used, and see whether there is a difference.
More convincing, though, is to do double blind listening tests - not easy, because you need to be able to change things over quickly. Such tests that I have seen show that when you do that, differences tend to disappear.
1 Like
They believe that vaccination is bad, but not tested. They believe also that earth is flat.
Believing and experimenting is different.
However I agree that burn in is not a SCIENTIFIC fact. But an experience in listening shared by many many people. Too many to consider it anecdotic.
Purely to help your English, the word is anecdotal. It baffles me why some people get so excited about this, and why they feel the need to argue. Perhaps taking the politics out of the Forum has concentrated the arguing on cables. Who really cares about why some hear changes - does it matter whether itâs a physical thing or if itâs simply getting used to the new sound? No wonder people think audiophiles are weird.
4 Likes
Ah, but if you want a ârealâ cable thread, I can heartily recommend PFM⊠just remember to wear a flak jacket.
Anecdotal evidence remains anecdotal, that is to say, untested, no matter how large the anecdotal tranche.
Therefore, it is not a reliable indicator and so not âfactualâ. Thatâs why itâs called âanecdotalâ.
Please tell me, âfrenchroosterâ, that you understand thisâŠ
1 Like
At least there the posts are 100 words or fewer, rather than a couple of thousand. Iâve heard big changes as cables run in, just like with electronics or speakers. Ethernet cables have signals running through them just like other cables do, so it seems entirely logical that changes will occur. But if someone says itâs in my mind then thatâs fine. I donât go off on one about it.
I was saying to someone recently that I was given a bottle of Barefoot Merlot and having tasted it I tipped it down the sink. They said they rather liked it. Just different tastes and different takes on things. Had it been the Naim forum doubtless there would have been an interminable discussion about changes to the molecular structure of my throat and people going on about how if 10,000 buyers of Barefoot think itâs good then itâs a fact. That doesnât alter the fact that I think itâs virtually undrinkable. And letâs face it, wine is far more important than wires.
1 Like
In french : anecdote is a secondary detail, minor, without any generalization.
So not really if shared by so very large population of audiophiles.