Christmas Cable Musings...!

I’m trying to understand something and would genuinely welcome informed views. What better to do on Boxing Day! Certainly more interesting than TV….for me at least.

In the recording and mastering world, professionals overwhelmingly use fairly straightforward, well-engineered cables (Van Damme, Mogami, Canare, etc.). Their design criteria seem very clear: correct impedance, low resistance and capacitance, good shielding, robust connectors, and repeatability. Once those basic electrical requirements are met, the cable is considered effectively transparent at audio frequencies and attention moves on to microphones, speakers, room acoustics, and monitoring.

By contrast, in consumer hi-fi there are cables costing many hundreds or even thousands of pounds more, often justified with claims about “micro-detail”, “timing”, “musicality”, or other effects that don’t obviously map to measurable electrical parameters at 20 Hz–20 kHz.

My genuine question is this:
If recording professionals—whose livelihoods depend on accuracy, translation, and repeatability—are satisfied that standard studio cables are sonically transparent, what makes it plausible that much more expensive consumer hi-fi cables are audibly changing the signal in a meaningful way rather than relying on expectation, context, or system interaction?

I’m not saying people can’t prefer what they hear, and I’m not trying to start a flame war. I’m just interested in hearing a coherent technical or experiential explanation that bridges the gap between professional practice and high-end consumer hifi claims or preferences.

Context - got to make a speaker cable change and interconnect cage. Some options are getting so expensive I thought I need to question this technically not just financially.

Keen to get community views and perspectives.

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I think I’ll sit back and watch the fireworks.

Roger

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Oh, so looking forward to this…:popcorn:

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It’s all handbags and oneupmanship.
The further back you dig into recorded albums you realise it’s much rougher than they think.
Nice balance that’s it.
It’s like wine tasting with ears everyone is different.
There that’s that :fire: stoked up.

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Luckily we have our friends in Shenzhen these days. They make High End jewellery at a mere fraction of the cost. That is if High End is your thing but your salary only allows you to spend your hard earned on family, food, rent … .

Hi Cmcgolpin

There are quite a few postings and threads on this topic.

If you have not seen any of mine, just give me a reply and I’ll post some specific links to threads and posts.

ATB

E of E

Thanks and please do @Edmund-of-Essex

I have read various threads during my time here but less on studio versus consumer.

Just seems odd that the people that produce the music don’t need the exotic materials and claims that we consumers need. Has anyone ever proven technically and scientifically that some configurations are genuinely and audibly better.

Regards,

Chris.

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Very good!

Hi,

There is one thread of mine where I discuss searching for the optimum loudspeaker cable for my system. This thread may be too challenging to read in one go but nevertheless has lots and lots of relevant technical information.

Jumping in at the middle starts from a reasonable place showing ‘lossless’ and ‘lossy’ calculations for calculating cable characteristic impedance. The link is here:- 'Audio Grade Solder' - Final Four LS cables and some surprising discoveries - #174 by Edmund-of-Essex

The most important thing to recognise is that the ‘cable’ (particularly loudspeaker cable) cannot be considered in isolation. It is part of a ‘system’ formed by the output stage of the amplifier, cable and loudspeaker.

My thread attempts to cover this topic in a humorous way. There are textbooks one can read if you want the science of it.

I note from your profile that you have a Naim Atom, however you have not declared which loudspeakers? Also, it is not quite clear which particular cables (I.e loudspeaker or interconnect) you are intending to change?

Here’s your fundamental issue. None of the above is true. Recording professionals look for cables to be reliable above all else. They also want them to be sufficient quality that if you replace one the best one sounds like it. Beyond that… they accept that cables all sound slightly different but you can mitigate that with all manner of microphones and recursing technique. Thus most studios have a wide selection of microphones with huge overlap in their purposes. Most people can see that it would be more than a bit weird to belief all rooms sound different, all processors sound different, all recording medium sound different, all instruments sound different but, er, all cables sound the same.

Get to know some people who work in studios. You’ll soon appreciate they’ve zero interest in accuracy. Their focus is on whether everything sits where it ought and does it sound great. Ironically and amusingly it’s only audiophiles who believe that recording studios value accuracy.

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I use Mogani cables, as I gather these are used very often to record the music we listen too, and I presume professionals use good products.

But on the other hand professional headphones are often cheap and cheerful low cost products, definitely inferior to my Hd800S or Heddphone 2GT.

I have had cables and connectors made up a company in Rimini that I have seen pre packed in HiFi shops with a mouth watering mark up. Double or triple the price. So yes a lot of price gouging happens.

The question about the validity of hyper expensive cabling and connectors takes us into a world of blind testing and psychoacoustics. Some say you cannot tell the difference in blind testing between a hyper expensive speaker cable and cheap lighting cable. Some say you can.

Snake oil is very present in the HiFi world. (Goggle HiFi Snake oil) Headphone Honesty has a good article.

Personally I believe good cables like Mogani and some decent €30-50 connectors are fine for most common mortals.

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Dave Gilmour’s Astoria studio was fairly comprehensively rewired using Russ Andrews kit a few years ago now. IIRC, the studio manager was happy to go on record saying he could hear the difference.

I think another major issue that studios face that is domestic users don’t is just how much cable they need. Most of us just need a few mains cables, probably fewer interconnects and one set of speaker cable. To rewire a whole studio with the sort of cables many of us use is prohibitively expensive. Remember they’re businesses trying to turn a profit; we’re definitely not!

Mark

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Harbeth m40.2.

Speaker cable. But also balanced cables from AccusticArts source and integrated.

Thanks for the thread. Will take a look tomorrow.

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Knopfler’s studio has ATC monitors, Chord amps and DACs and Chord Co XLRs etc, a few years ago I had the pleasure. I can’t remember the brand but he also had a specific brand of guitar cable.

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Depends what you mean by accuracy.

The people who work in them work with what they have, setting sound as they feel is right for each recording, and of course pocking microphoneas and other instruments as part pf that, including all as you say. But I suspect the brief for initially designing and installing the monitoring studio and its core monitoring equipment may be rather different, at least for decent studios (as opposed to microphones, instruments etc used in the initial sound capture) The people working there then work with that. If that were no the case there’d be no market for the very carefully engineered monitor speakers and associated amp, aimed at a neutral sound, reproducing as close as possible to what they are fed, and the very considerable attention to minimising the acoustic influence of the studio

Naim likes to maintain musical timing as best as possible so they have an additional design criteria to those you listed.

How would your favourite album this year have sounded if it had been recorded in a Naim studio (if such a thing were to exist)? Just cos the studios don’t worry about these things doesn’t mean they cannot be improved upon.

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It’s a great topic. I work mostly in classical music. My eclectic tastes kind of led me to different projects and so I have quite a bit of experience in studios. In today’s market if you are a studio musician as in producer or a sound engineer, in the case of starting a studio, you would shop at a “studio equipment shop you simply wouldn’t have exposure of hifi brands which audiophiles are familiar, though the speakers are the exception you have the famous ATC which are big for domestic use, for these people their awareness is not related to cables, quality means the cables will last for a long period and not break. The other thing as you mentioned, hifi brands often have a hierarchy of cables, the whole marketing is to distinguish between better and worse is based on the price. I have to say today’s recording industry is really different. Because it’s mostly(I do not know of any artists still recording reel to reel today) digital, it is heavily software based, I had production students came to me offered to record for free, all they bring along is a laptop, everything else is secondary. The major production we have heard of are not the majority. Only major record labels can afford proper studio booth. And the money logically should be spent on microphones, mixing desk and proper monitors. I did studio recording the final year in music college, as it was classical music I learned about mic positioning and there is far less tempering with eq and reverb, let along compression, gains and other manipulation like in rock and pop genre. My experience with cables is they do have different balances but it’s more subtle when it comes to classical music. I once had Siltech cables they made the violin sound so silky, the treble is to die for but the bass has no power and it really is painful going from Sibelius violin concerto to massive attack. And mind you Siltech is not cheap. I did sell them afterwards. When I talk to my studio friends about it, they are completely clueless what I’m on about.
Hifi is a subscribed concept, I got into hifi because of my mate put together a system, it is far from high end but my pioneers at the time for me sounded great but once subscribed to the concepts, it’s made me want to improve it, but improvement is a personal choice. I can imagine some audiophile friend would tell Ozzy osboune to buy some high end speakers and they should match to some Nordost flagship cables etc, but it doesn’t make sense to him, not because he can easily afford it, he would only care when he wants to subscribe to the whole “sound stage” “bass” is taut not boomy, transparent concepts etc.
When I go to my mate’s, we would just hang out at his studio, he listen for pleasure through his studio monitor with unknown cables, for me it’s great, just another flavour.

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Again, this is audiophile myth. It’s what audiophiles desperately want to believe but it’s just not borne out by the reality.

I’ve helped plan and build a well known studio on Merseyside and recorded in several across the North West. There are indeed lots of carefully engineered monitor speakers. Some very upmarket studios aside, they’re largely not in use in studios and almost never have been. As recently as two weekends ago the offspring was in a studio on Sheffield. Three pairs of monitors. The most expensive coming in at £15k. Tracking and mixing primarily done on NS10s. You’ll do well to find anything remotely “neutral” on any recording studio and that’s always been the case.

Abbey Road using B&W 800 series. Speakers with a slightly warm balance.

Air Studios putting great store by their claimed neutrality and yet using three main makes to monitor (and more in their cupboard too). If you have monitors (in their case Dynaudio as I recall) which are your main kit but which are softened sufficiently to enable work over long sessions is that “neutral”? The B&Ws they also use? If one pair achieve this mythical status why have more? Why add in ATCs?

The answer of course is that they’re not neutral at all. No more than the Neve and SSL they use which are absolutely fundamentally different in sound signature.

To repeat. You use multiple mikes with different sonic signatures, multiple processing units (no two compressors sound alike for example. Comprehensive sound proofing is often in place. Room treatment much less so. You use multiple monitors with different sonic signatures but most studios choose to track on the neutral but mix and produce on the least neutral but, BUT you select your cables for neutrality.

Absolute nonsense and always has been.

You said their careers depend on it. Are you now saying you don’t know what it even means?

As I said in the first place, you’ve started from an assumption. It’s a wrong one,