Do I need a preamp?

Hi-Fi Corner
41

I didn’t know the 333 could vary the output level but that’s great to see. There are still plenty of input stages around that can overload on CD standard voltages or, slightly less seriously, that are not at their best on inputs that high. Sadly it doesn’t obviate the need for a pre.

There’s so much muck in the air and on ground lines these days that signal conditioning is now more of a requirement than a luxury. That time-aligned filter that first came out on the 72 was a great idea and I expect is now baked into the Naim sound to the point that it’s probably now necessary to have it to get the same sound they get at the factory.

Personally I’m keener on even more aggresive filtering than Naim do and definitely don’t subscribe to the “infinite bandwidth” credo some manufacturers think is needed for virgin purity. But even if you don’t open up the bandwidth to AM radio frequencies, which many do, nearly all the components in these amps are capable of going out to tens of MHz, if not several hundreds. Signals at these frequencies will affect the behaviour at the PN junctions, and most electronic engineers will throw up their hands if asked to predict what is likely to be going on. So best not to have them at all.

The bandwidth of the 333 is likely to be narrow enough to be acceptable to the power amps (though that may actually not be the case with higher res material - I don’t know) and we know that Naim do say not to send their power amps signals that are outside their remit, but it’s what it might have picked up on the way - and the fact that it hasn’t been washed, dressed and tidied up - that is going to mean that the output is slightly less than optimal. That may not show up all the time but it’s going to be somewhere between not getting everything the product can do and that grinding descent into just not listening to it because it’s not hitting the spot.

So, yeah, definitely get the pre-amp. And I might even go so far as to say, trust Naim! There may be a few electronics engineers out there who are better equipped to do the job, but none of them has spent as much time as Naim has trying to hit that spot, for you. I have a genuine respect for Naim Audio and none of it is fanboy stuff - though of course it was in the beginning.

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42

Some, maybe many, DACs include or offer RF frequency cut (e.g. Chord Hugo and Dave). I don’t know if that applies to any Naim DACs/Streamers like the 333

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43

Same, I was running a Chord DAVE and had an Esoteric N-05XD on trial, which supposed to have a world class volume control, direct into my ATC SCM100ASLT active speakers.

It was just an OK and satisfying sound, but something was missing.

The punchy, deep bass that the DAVE was famous for didn’t grab me - at all. Same as the ATC actives, it was just an OK sound.

Then got a Chord Ultima Pre 3 ( a slight issue, mentioned in another thread) it all just clicked.

And not in a small, barely noticeable way either. I was genuinely shocked - thunderous (not exaggerating) bass that was more tuneful as well, crisper and more noticeable treble, soundstage that expanded in width and depth. Just a more “real” sound. A review of a ATC Active 100 said something similar, they had a Townsend passive preamp in the review system and it didn’t click for the reviewer either, they replaced it with an active preamp and the ATC’s came alive.

TBH, it was like I upgraded the speakers, it was that noticeable. Everything from very low level listening to medium to 90db “total wig out” music is wonderful and a total joy.

I’ll never go back to an all in one DAC/Preamp again.

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44

Aloha; yes- not to give a mini review here… but I do feel that some words shared on Grace Design is worthwhile.

Without doubt one of the best hifi purchases I have EVER made. :and I have bought a lot of (excellent/‘top tier’) kit at some insane prices.

With Grace Design there is a ‘smile factor’ with each time I go to use the product… from well thought out menus and a handbook that gives a person ‘pride of ownership’ and realises that these parts are made with ‘pure love’ (and attention to detail).

The fact that they talk about which Digital inputs might benefit from spending more on a cable, and ‘things like a Mono function’; the sheer amount of times that having this part in line has gotten me out of troubles in ways that nothing else has, with a sound quality that has blown me away on more than a handful of occasions where I look at how small and how crowded this ‘little box is’; yet it delivers something MUCH MUCH better than what my mind tells me it should.

Clearly a case of ‘you get what you pay for’ (at full RRP)!

At second hand ‘peanuts prices’: I would NEVER let this part go!

For anyone that is selling one of these for some notion of what ‘second hand’ market prices equivelate - “just do it”. (BUY)

The m903 is a keeper.
The USB input, whilst using an annoying cable type, arguably, IS a proper implementation (and they paid good money to make sure it is top tier).
The smoothness of the DAC circuit had me use this as my main DAC (and made a Topping D90 seem like pure and absolute junk by comparison)… and the features are just icing.
Two things it does that have proven ‘very useful’ is being able to level match the inputs via XLR and RCA (and use it as a high quality switch box, with ‘appropriate trim’).
When doing this I sent an email off to Grace and was given reply email within a super short amount of time confirming what settings I would need.
They CARE (and service products with people communicating in a timely manner)…
At no point did I feel, as the second owner, and ‘years beyond sell date’, that I was a second class citizen.
Having a DAC that can switch between UAC1 and UAC2 mode is handy. (eg Playstation 5 and Switch input)…

The sheer quality of a product like this (feels like studio kit with audiophile sound quality (not just 'spec sheet warfare and a part that is 'naff to listen to)) is something to keep.
The world doesn’t seem to engineer parts like this for ‘sane price points’ anymore, which means, due to scales of production, stuff like this simply isn’t around…

If you ever come across an m903 I’d say ‘jump on it’; it will be selling for less than it is worth, and will continue to be useful in a plethora of ways, and generally being better than just about anything else that is likely to ‘do the same job’.

Even as a simply DAC/headphone amp, it is ‘top tier’ goodness.
Maybe not for large over ears (I feed the output into a Burson Conductor V2 if I need more juice), but it makes the Burson seem ‘cheap’ (yes the 7kilogram GIANT headphone amp is ‘good for more power’, but not much else).

As something in the heart of a ‘nice’ (/very nice) rig, the m903 fits, not just because of its’ tiny size… but because it was built to be the best and it shows.
Every time I use it it makes me smile.
(/rant or ‘mini review’)

oh and having ‘used’ the crossfeed on a Chord Hugo (useless),… the included crossfeed is actually useful, and makes me realise WHY having one is advantageous.

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45

There, of course, you are not feeding a power amp but an active crossover.

46

I must admit that I’m not that up to speed on the difference.

Is it harder to get a clean signal to match an active crossover vs a power amp stage ?

47

I have no idea of ATC’s current circuitry, not even whether analogue or digital for the AXO though I suspect not digital as that would lend itself to also including a digital input. I was merely pointing out that using the active speakers you’re not feeding a power amp direct from the DAC, which might (or might not) be significant in the experience you described.

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48

Thank you ever so much for that. And for taking the time to be so detailed. I’m so pleased that it confirms my impression to date, which is one of supreme technical competence and thoroughness. There also seem to be plenty of customers, both pro and consumer, wishing that older products were still in production. I will definitely keep my eye out for one. Thanks again.

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49

It’d be a pretty good bet that it’s going to be a buffer op amp with a resistive load of 10k or above, isn’t it? I suppose they could save themselves the buffer and feed all three filter sections in parallel but then every make of pre amp becomes a new use case, which is unlikely to be welcomed by Customer Service.

50

It’s marginally trickier to drive a power amp. Undegenerated Long Tailed Pairs can produce distortion that doesn’t necessarily go away with feedback if you aren’t properly within their design remit. Op amps, which I’m assuming ATC uses for this task, nearly all have a similar type of input stage but they are designed to be “universal” by nature, and usually have the vast resources of a giant semiconductor company to make sure that they are. These days it’s very hard to upset an op amp.

51

I did read somewhere that they use discrete components not ICs in their active amps - but I’m unclear as to whether the AXO was included in that observation. As for impedance, IIRC their spec says 10k.

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53

That’s good to hear. I expect it’s pretty rare these days to find any active filters implemented around a transistor rather than an op amp. It’s quite a bit harder to do and if you want to hit your target function will likely need a fair bit of tweaking on the test bench. With modern op amps, what you see on your simulator is going to be pretty much exactly what you get. I think Naim used to do it discretely; I have no idea what they do now though I’d be quite surprised if it’s not around op amps. I once rewired Roger Macer’s Rosewood Isobariks with NACA4 and I seem to remember his SNAXO was discrete.

54

As we have discussed before :slight_smile: although you had “spectacular results” with no preamp into your 500 - at the time - using Rossini + Clock - you reported preferring the sound (very slightly) when using 552 + 500. When you later moved to a full Vivaldi stack you then reported a clear preference for direct connection. So, yes, in your view it can sometimes happen, but at considerable expense.

55

A lot of money for a very slight preference… but of course one person’s very slight is another’s night and day!
Regardless, it is an easy thing to try for oneself, and if happy without the preamp, and no analogue sources needing it, then a chunk of money saved for something else.

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56

The really big bit off all what you have said and missed is Apex.
The Apex upgrade which is a complete re design off the output stages changed everything.
When i first tried it with my rossini it was before the Apex upgrade was even known about, and the vivaldi i upgraded to obviously was an Apex version.
I never tried a rossini apex but i know a few that have and all reported the same out come as me, so you don’t need to go to vivaldi to get the results, but if you can you will obviously gain even better results.
But i will say if you are lucky enough to have an Apex dCS dac, you certainly don’t need a pre amp to get the ultimate result.
But obviously not everything is made the same and works as well. But i could have 100% lived with my 500dr running directly as it had never sounded so good.

Cheers dunc

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57

Yes, at the price of a Vivaldi stack.

58

As said you dont need a vivaldi stack, bartock, rossini or vivaldi dac all have the same Apex board.
A rossini into a 500dr is far cheaper than you know what, plus even the vivaldi dac into a 500dr leaves you some left for a decent streamer. You don’t need a 3 piece vivaldi stack to get great results and lot’s don’t.

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59

Your reported personal experience was that 552 + 500 beat (closely) Rossini - 500 direct. Also that Vivaldi Apex beat 552 + 500. The results of other comparisons are either your assumptions, or hearsay from people you speak to. I feel like a busted Grace-Supex repeating this stuff every time someone mentions “preamp” on the forum. Give it a rest (and start spelling Bartok as Bartok).

60

I was just responding to you as you brought it up.
Sorry if my response to it upsets you.
Have a good Christmas.

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61

For what it’s worth I’ve never done these dCS comparisons … I’m totally open to the prospect of a direct connection being an improvement. Just that in the interests of fairness - we should report stuff as it happened. A good holiday yourself, with some great sounds.