Do I need a preamp?

back to my original question. I’m considering how I can test SQ using my SN2 as a power amp vs integrated.

am I correct in understanding that if I switch my SN2 to AV mode and use the AV input this in effect puts the source coming through the AV input direct to the power amp section of the SN2?

is there any reason not to put the DAC into the AV input (vs CD where it currently lives)? I note the AV input is also an output unlike the CD input, but I imagine this isn’t going to make any difference.

I appreciate the need to keep the digital volume low when I do this to avoid too much volume/damage.

This subject has been discussed in numerous threads. This is a recent contribution I made to one:

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thanks for the link, some useful comments in that thread… I did search first, but the forum search didn’t help much when presented with my thread title as search criteria.

^^^yep.
Until I owned a really good preamp, I had no idea. (Heck Paul McGowan experienced the same, and had to do a 180 on his previous views).
Having run variable output from a range of ‘decent’ DACs and ‘boxes that claim’ ‘good preamp!’; they were all smoked by a Proceed AVP2.
Sure the Proceed is a home theatre processor, and everything about it goes against my minds preference to ‘simple is better’; it turns out that a good preamp, whose duty ultimately IS volume control (and switching) does more…

The way the stage can open up and the ‘holography’ /3D throw really materialises…
When I attempted to use the ‘variable output’ from a Chord Hugo/Grace m903/Burson Conductor V2+ into valve monoblocks they were all ‘very flat’ by comparison to a ‘real’ preamp.
A preamp, I put to you, is more that just volume duties (and switching).
Most people will NOT HAVE EXPERIENCED THIS!

Yes.
(and improves the sound quality based on many posts I have skimmed on this topic)

It will be a SN5 when it comes.

The possibility of a high end integrated at 300/500 level has oft been discussed. I was recently in discussion with a gentleman on another forum when I was thinking of downsizing to a high(er) end integrated and he had swapped his 252 out for a Vitus integrated and said that whilst it was a lovely player he did miss the vibrancy and involvement he always felt was there with the 252/300.

Regards,

Lindsay

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I’ve been doing some back to back testing….

333 into SN2 CD port with fixed volume.

333 into SN2 AV port in AV bypass mode using the 333 digital volume

A couple of times I think I’ve heard a difference. A couple of times I’m sure I can’t. To me than means any difference is minor or in my brain only… challenging the need for a pre.

I appreciate the SN2 has got a fairly cheap pre section when compared to something like a 332 which may be more noticeable

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To not need a pre amp, really is all about the source. You certainly need a very capable source to pull it off correctly.
But if you are lucky enough to have that, then the results can be astonishing.
Plus you can put the pre amp money into getting a better source.
But even then you still might prefer what a pre amp does, as every pre amp will add something to the mix.

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Glad you have been testing…
taking the time to learn/know our equipment is truly worthwhile, and, given this is a hobby on top of 'the enjoyment of having music sound like, erm,… ‘music’, the hobby stuff if taken in stride and done so ‘with joy’/passion is very rewarding too.

some reflections to share on the process you have just gone through…
‘hearing SOME differences’ (but them being small enough to not notice or ‘care’); this might not be true of all music.
A particular track, the differences might be very obvious. Some whole genres can prove difficult to render, and if traits favouring one of the two setup options you have been trialing lean toward a given preferred genre sounding BEST (albeit ‘slightly’) -then that IS a win.
(I wouldn’t dismiss the small stuff outright!)

My main reason for posting isn’t to state that small observable differences may/‘may not’ be worthwhile,… but to highlight that the SN2 is no doubt ‘very broken in’ and performing at its’ absolute best.
The new part probably hasn’t even begun to open up yet…

I’d lean on their being great strengths to be found in the new part, as a preamp, into the SN2 using AV Bypass (Unity Gain),… and that ‘more time in the oven’ exploring such sound might be worthwhile.

There can be a few setup questions that some might want addressed, the ‘scientists’ if you will (lets face it,… we neeed ‘observable phenomena’ and this IS a process…);
If the cable is new that links these parts… it too may need some time to find its’ stride.
Also, there are advantages to using an existing cable in the traditional setup as the kit has run for a long time already… Line level output is a ‘stronger signal’, and even a more generic cable can pass this and achieve a certain ‘delicacy’; combine that with the very decent preamp circuitry in a Supernait, and the strengths of that setup are stacked, clearly, against the alternative option- being an unbroken in preamp, using a likely unbroken in cable, and sending a very delicate signal (variable level) into the 'Unity Gain’ed Supernait.

Depending on your power setup, you might find strengths and weaknesses to both setups in a range of areas… and I haven’t even read about the preamp you are using; I am sure I could reach out and point and a few things that might need consideration when attempting to make sense of the two options available to you.

I certainly would encourage FURTHER A/B’ing, and perhaps on some of the better classical/orchestral recordings you might be familiar with. (they seem to really push rigs in ways that a lot of music simply does not- although I have tracks by Nine Inch Nails /‘other genres’ that push sound systems in familiar ways that I have come to trust when ‘pulling apart’ what I am actually hearing…)

And just because something sounds different, doesn’t make it better.

all to often we WANT to ascribe sound ‘differences’ as being better when the part we are rotating in cost more.
I was caught out once at a friends place when they’d bought a new R2R DAC.
The first two hours of it ‘straight from box’ the sound was “opening up”; I was using an Android phone to do ‘on the fly’ PCM=>DSD conversion (Onkyo HF Player software) and the sonic differences, at the time, were evident.
The weird bubble that the DSD’d music had, was, in someways a trait that one might seek.
We then trialed a few digital cables, and leant on the cable that did the same thing as the DSD files kind of rendered (one of the cables made the music appear to be in more ‘pockets’); in hindsight I would believe that DSD files through that R2R are the inferior file choice (and run through a regular Delta Sigma process in order to be ‘handled’), and therefore the digital cable that sounded closer to the PCM tracks being decoded was ‘probably the more honest’/‘better’ choice.

There were differences, but that doesn’t always make something better.
Trust your feet. (smiles with’)

A pre amp, although can provide gain and switching duties, it prime purpose is matching and buffering source impedance of the power amplifier with the output impedance of the source… and do this across all gain/volume levels. This is why preamps tend to bring a source alive when connected to a power amp… even if the source has gain control.

If we used matched impedances between our source output and power amp input, then other than volume, we wouldn’t need a preamp. But manufacturers typically don’t hence why the pre amp stage becomes so important in the vast majority of setup.
In fact in audio the general perceived approach is to have low source output impedance, and a high impedance amp stage input… therefore unless deliberately matched or by luck, the audio performance will differ across the audio bandwidth when connecting the two without a preamp stage…this can lead to un attractive results, like a dull, or forward or glary sound, and even losing detail and attenuating finer parts of the audio signal.

So hopefully one can understand therefore, even if your source has gain control, why you still benefit/need a preamp stage, if such a stage is not integrated with your power amp.

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Given my current experience the answer is YES, and get the best one you possibly can.

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Yup…sorry.

It’s different designs from different engineers from different firms! Linn, for example, stop making pre-amps, their Linn network streamers are designed to hook up directly to their amps. Naim, obviously, follow a different route. It is not that one design is better than others, it is you who decide which sounds best to your ears and best for your wallet.

Yes it will be an SN5… 4 is an unlucky number in Asia.

But the good old Klimax DSM (dont know about the latest) has Lundahl 1584 transformers isolating the outputs. And oddly only on the unbalanced outputs on some models (you can enable/disable them in the config).

Given that DACs sees so sensitive to RFI and other low-level nasties, the reason DAC direct so seldom works (I’ve tried a few times) could it be stuff leaking the other way? From the power amp?

Or may just call it the SN300 :grinning:

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Not sure if it is the Lundahl 1584 transformer, but you can still disable or enable the RCA output transformer on the latest top-of-the-line Klimax DSM/3 by config.

Do be careful, Linn still use preamps, they however incorporate into their streamer source.
The preamp had technical buffer function, to match a source output impedance response to power amplifier input impedance response. In hifi audio we don’t use impedance matched transmission lines, so a preamp is almost always required (whether incorporated or standalone). If it isn’t it’s by luck.

I would say with you naim 333 you will still need a pre amp to get the sound.
But as said before with the right solution (source) you can get spectacular results as i found out with my 500dr and no pre amp. So naim amp’s can work extremely well without a naim pre amp or any pre amp.

Of course, I know what I am talking about. :wink:

I’d be really interested in a mini review of the Grace m903, especially whether or not it has a tendency towards the clinical. I love the way they do some of their products. They really are examples for other people to follow and meet their standards.

There is a review on Head fi but sadly it uses mp3s which, for me at least, kinda annuls anything they say. Once in a blue moon they can sound OK but they mostly transport you back to the start of your hi fi journey. Try playing an mp3 of Moonflower and, if you were around then, it’s time travel to 1975 and remembering the limitations of a PL112D, Shure M75s and cheap Japanese amps.