BTW … I did own a Wadia 15 Dac at one time, or to give it its grandiose title “Decoding Computer” … and ran the output directly into my 135’s, using the onboard digital volume control. No preamp has to be better, right? I then had the opportunity to try CDS1 / 82 / HC into my 135’s and speakers. I could not BELIEVE the improvement, using any metric. Not saying that old Wadia would compete with modern dCS kit … but … it was a pleasant surprise nonetheless. (I’d previously had 42.5 / snaps and the Wadia direct was better). So I still have an 82 in Sys 2 which I enjoy daily.
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I was going to start another thread on this, but this might be the opportune place…
Has anyone tried the new Klimax DS as a source and pre into a 500DR? Any good?
If anyone has heard the comparison with a 552DR and KDS/3 as source, any thoughts would be even more appreciated!
As i have said many times and for some reason only parts off it get recognise and other bits ignored.
Pre amp or no pre amp really depends on the gear being used.
Even then you will probably find you prefer one over the other.
There is no right or wrong.
A naim amp like the 300dr and 500dr can work especially well without a naim pre amp or no pre amp.
The Apex dac’s from dCS work extremely well with no pre amp, be it naim or any other manufacturer. dCS themselves use no pre amp in all it’s demo’s.
It’s not just me that has found this out, even a few from here have found the same.
I only tried it with my 500dr, but others have had the 300dr.
Think that’s about it, but as said you can only try it for yourselves, but obviously not many can on here as you don’t have a source with a volume like the dac’s in question.
Cheers dunc
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As has been said many times, it is not just a matter of controlling volume, but limiting ultrasonic frequencies if the power amp needs that, and appropriate impedance with sufficient source current and such buffering as for the load to not affect the behaviour pf the DAC’s output stage - so not just any DAC with a means of controlling volume.
Thanks … yes … I have certainly learned more recently about the whys and wherefores … from your posts and others. “No preamp has to be better, right?” … was my logic at the time … my ears clearly disagreed.
And your ears may have been right! Also, of course, where a preamp modifies the sound to stamp a character that any individual prefers, it will win over even the most perfect direct match.
Some here , with the Dave, have found how better was the sound , FOR THEM, with a Chord Ultima pre .
Maybe you could try, just to verify your theory? To see if the pre adds something or just let the Dave reveal more himself.
The debate over the necessity of a preamp in high-end audio systems is complex and nuanced. Currently, I possess several top-tier power amps, including the Chord Ultima 5, Vitus SM 011, and Gryphon Essence. Alongside these, I have the dCS Rossini Apex and Emm Labs DV2 DACs, both engineered to directly drive power amps.
However, I’ve encountered challenges with directly connecting the DACs to the Vitus power amp. The Vitus has an input sensitivity of 2V, but setting the DAC output to this level results in insufficient volume, particularly noticeable while watching movies where dialogue becomes barely audible even at maximum volume. Increasing the DAC output to 6V seems to remedy this, but it raises concerns about overloading the power amp and potential signal clipping at higher volumes.
A similar issue presents itself with the Gryphon, which has a peculiar sensitivity of 0.564V. An output setting of 0.6V from the dCS resulted in a lackluster audio experience. Thus, to address this, I acquired the Gryphon preamp, which dramatically enhanced the system’s performance, revealing the true Gryphon sound as intended.
Given these experiences, my dealer suggested considering a preamp for the Vitus as well. However, I’m hesitant, especially considering the cost of the Vitus preamp SL103, which is nearly equivalent to their integrated SIA030 model.
Direct DAC-to-power amp connections can yield a transparent and detailed sound. The primary challenge lies in matching the gain to drive the power amp effectively. For amps like the Vitus and Gryphon, which have lower sensitivities, selecting the correct output voltage is critical yet tricky. This situation underlines the potential benefits of a preamp in achieving optimal sound quality and system performance.
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I don’t think a pre can help a source reveal itself a pre can only really change things or mask any short falls the source has.
In the chord dav / chord pre amp i would say its designed to work in line with the dave to help the dave where chord feel it’s lacking.
If chord thought they had nail the dave sound then they wouldn’t have a pre amp for sale.
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Maybe you are right….
If I were an audio reviewer, I would be glad to try the best digital sources available today and compare the sound straight into a preamp vs with the best pre available.
It’s also probably a personal taste, as I read sometimes in Stereophile or Absolute Sound that both have their pros and coins, be it top CH Precision , Soulution, MSB…dacs , which have a volume control. Some prefer direct, other with a top pre.
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Exactly
As i said you really have to just try for yourself, but you also need to try it with gear that can actually pull it off as this is where most fall short.
Plus if you do find it you can spend that pre amp money on better amp’s, source or wife. Well maybe not the last one.
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Erm, the preamp has multiple analogue inputs (the Ultima Pre has 8 inputs, 4 balanced and 4 single ended, each with adjustable gain), so I think it exists to serve the common demands for a preamp, of raising signal levels from lower level sources to that appropriate for a power amp, while providing for multiple selectable sources, and a single volume control, not least because many sources don’t have.
At the same time Chord still states on its website The device’s lossless digital volume control outputs the signal direct to your power amplifier for the purest experience.".
So no, it does not appear that Chord thinks Dave’s sound would be improved by use of its preamps.
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Anyway I strongly doubt I will one day get rid of a pre, as I can’t imagine not having a turntable.
I use a Lumin P1 as my streamer/pre directly into a Nagra Classic amp. The Lumin has multiple digital and analog inputs, also HDMI inputs.
IF I had the money to buy a Nagra Classic Preamp, would I? Definitely because I have heard what it adds in person at my dealer. One thing that bothers me about running direct to an amp is having to make sure the volume is at Zero before I turn on the amp. Here is a photo of my IPad screen showing all the inputs on the P1.
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Give you that.
You are correct in that i completely forgot about people with more than one source, just like myself lol. Need pre amp.
But the fact the dave sounds better going through a pre amp, and the pre amp is obviously adding something that’s missing from the natural dave sound, shows that the dave is probably lacking in some areas doesn’t it ?
Whereas i would 100% run my dac direct if i could as it just sounds so wonderful doing it that way.
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No, I don’t think it’s the preamp adding something to make it sound good. I believe it’s the benefits of it being properly driven. Let me explain my view.
You should be familiar with how the Vitus preamp offers selectable input sensitivity of 2, 4, and 8V. When set appropriately to match the source’s output, the audio quality is significantly optimized. You should have experienced this before, noticing the improvement when the source is properly matched and driving the preamp.
Now, looking at power amps, Vitus doesn’t provide a similar selectable sensitivity feature for their power amplifiers. I suspect this is a deliberate design choice to ensure that their power amps are ideally driven only by Vitus preamps. This synergy, when properly matched, can produce exceptional results.
Given that you’re currently using a Vitus integrated amplifier, you might not have experienced the full potential of pairing a Vitus preamp with their power amp. This combination can truly elevate the audio experience, similar to how your perspective on audio clarity and vividness was transformed when you used the 500DR driven directly by the dCS.
Furthermore, exploring the capabilities of a high-quality preamp, especially those from Vitus that are priced higher than their power amps, can offer a new level of audio refinement. This is due to the proper matching and driving of the system. Such an experience could potentially reshape your views on the impact and importance of a premium preamp in an audio setup.
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The Dave doesn’t sound better through a pre, in my opinion/experience. Yes the pre can influence the sound but better, in my opinion no. I have an ATC preamp, which I don’t use, and have demoed the Ultima, I prefer the Dave/MScaler into my active ATC’s.
There a number of Dave users go straight into a power amp or active speakers, of course if more than one source you’ll need a pre. Chord match the Dave to the Etude, Choral pre amps only seem popular with multiple sources.
Maybe
But with my dac and my experience off using it and seeing other’s how they use it. You can 100% do away without a pre amp and that is into many different manufacturers Amp’s.
As said as for other’s i can’t really comment.
It will of course depend on the DAC, the power amp, and the preamp in question - all three. Add in the listener’s preference it is all four.
I do know Dave sounded better to me without a preamp than with, and that was into a couple of different power amps. But I haven’t tried other preamps - not sure why I would want to, considering how fantastic Dave is without one - so I’ve never heard Dave through Ultima pre, into any amp (and short of a major lottery win, likely never will).
This reminds me I have a comparison still to do, which is Dave into my current amp with and without power amp. I don’t particularly enjoy comparisons, and with it sounding so good I have no itch to try. For that reason it will probably wait until I have more spare time, maybe some way through this coming yea
Indeed… as said earlier on in this thread, domestic audio does not use transmission lines between amps and sources, therefore a conditioning pre amp is required either as part or separate to the power amp.
Essentially a low impedance source feeds a high impedance input… but the key thing is impedance, not resistance, so the impedance load will vary slightly with frequency between source and input load… unless matched. A preamp will typically do this for a power amp, without this the sound from the power amp for a given source can feel off, muted, forward, exaggerated, you name it… or by chance it can sound perfect
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