That’s why this hobby is so diverse. My strong preference is DAVE into Ultimate 3 Pre. and ATC SCM 100A.
I wish it wasn’t such a clear upgrade, I could have saved myself a lot of moolah. More dynamics, more bass, better and more obvious soundstage. Just better everything TBH.
2 Likes
Diverse is good. I was interested to see what the Ultima 3 could add, I didn’t dislike, different not better to me. Instead I ended up trading in my Zenith and PhoenixUSB for a Statement next gen, this was a more immediately noticeable improvement.
Go for the Gryphon. You won‘t be disappointed. I bought this amp 6 months ago. Amazing sound quality, which is above all integrated amps I have listened to before. You will have to spend a huge amount of money to beat this level of performance.
I bet it was, I so lust after that Innuos Statemant. It’s a wonderful piece of gear, one day !!
1 Like
I totally agree with you… I found the DAVE directly feeding a power amp, even Chord Electronic poweramps, lack lustre and and brash… put a preamp in line designed to match its associated power amp, then to my ears it’s in a different ball park in terms of sheer enjoyment, involvement and to use that horrible word…. musicality.
2 Likes
Gryphon top of my list so far. Pass integrated up there too.
Trying Vitus and D’Agostino next weekend, then I’ll get a few to my house for a face off…
What did you listen to before choosing the Gryphon?
So looks like I’ve done away with the DAC direct idea
1 Like
Might it be worth mentioning that the inputs to the pre amps and the power amps are completely, radically, different? The pre amps use a shunt series pair - or a development thereof - and this must be one of the best sounding circuits of all time. Think State of the Art late '70s early '80s kit and how gorgeous some of that could sound. Or Neve mixing desks. And this is a SOTA execution of it, with both a follower and a CCS. The power amp inputs are a fairly standard Long Tailed Pair (with its own quirks) but which you can find in most power amps you’ll see on dealer’s shelves. It would actually be quite surprising if they sounded the same, or even close to each other.
But as the signal still has to go through the power amp, any different sound of the preamp is a sound in addition to that of the power amp, not an alternative sound - it might or might not be a sweet sound, but it as added, and that is inherently negative of one wants to hear the music as recorded
I know. It’s quite a conundrum, isn’t it?
And CDs really threw a spanner in the works with their high, but kind of unneeded, output levels. One can see why they wanted them, especially with everything so tight on the dynamic range side (which also screwed the mastering) that the last thing they wanted to do was eat into it with noise. It’s a somewhat unnuanced solution but, then again, they were up against some pretty hard data limits at that time and can you expect them to foresee that it would up the use of compression so everything could be near the same volume on the radio, so not giving the electronics designers a dynamic range they could have made use of. Now we’re having to throw away gain instead of amplifying the signal in a controlled manner with the right amount of headroom. Maybe I should be grateful they didn’t come up with MP3 as the solution. 
I was really just saying that they are bound to sound very different because they are driving completely different things. So, viewing it slightly askance, it’s not necessarily true to say the pre must be adding something (or losing it) but they might take on different characteristics, and what you are hearing isn’t necessarily just what the pre added. And then on top of that there’s the matter of not handing power amp something that might upset it. Power amps are awfully vulnerable to this sort of muck and, as well as the environment, they’ve probably become more so because the transistors are so much faster. My favourite comment/description on this comes from Martin Colloms who said “It flows around the amplifier like water.” It’s so true. The amplifiers could be off doing a whole different thing at the same time as they are playing your music.
I concur. Impedance matching is the main reason not to skip on a preamplifier.
1 Like
Yes, but should consider the design and electronics aspect. A power amplifier needs a matched pre amp to function correctly or at least as intended. Sure this preamp can be integrated with the power amp, separate or part of a matched source, but you do need a preamp.
Without a preamp the chances are the power amp won’t be sounding or functioning as intended, or is not designed to produce an exact response over the audio band.
Hi Simon … you did use the Dave direct into Etude power amp for quite a long time (hence it probably did sound ok ?) and did you get a chance to test a chord preamp ?
I was about to buy a chord etude but after seeing you come back to naim I dropped the idea
I did test a chord ttoby power amp with Dave driving it but I wasn’t convinced…
I did indeed… but was never totally convinced… and found I was listening to less music… a sure sign something was up. I listened to a Cord preamp away from home. The Etude is a cracking power amp, but it does in my opinion need a proper preamp, and it has a matching preamp from the Chord stable.
I wanted to down size….
2 Likes
Thanks there’s now a chord integrated but … I think I will just stick with naim …
Hi @Innocent_Bystander , it would seem that appearances can be deceptive in this case then. The sound quality coming out of DAVE via a Chord Ultima power amp is substantially improved by the insertion of a Chord Ultima Pre-amp, whether the 2 or the 3.
Why do I say this? Because I and a number of others have heard exactly this comparison in our own systems and at Chord run demonstrations in reputable Chord & Naim dealers. I wish it were not so, as we would have saved £12.5k by leaving the Ultima 2 Pre with the dealer when we bought the power amp!
I suspect the answer on whether to use an external pre or not comes down to the quality of the source component’s internal pre verses the external pre in question. Chord’s external pre-amps are more capable than DAVE’s internal one, while the DCS Apex dacs may have such a good internal pre that almost no external pre can compete.
Ultimately, best to let our ears decide on case by case basis.
Happy New Year! BF
7 Likes
Have to say what ever dCS have done with the apex upgrade, it has certainly moved the game forward quite a way.
As said the 500dr worked lovely with it running directly from it’s rca out’s and this method is not the opium way to do it but it worked well.
Also it’s very handy to have 4 different output voltage’s to play with to get the result that works best.
I used an Accuphase E 650 integrated amp. Also familiar with the big boys from Luxman and Pass Labs which I listened to at my dealer. With all due respect - the Gryphon Diablo 300 is playing in another league.
@Innocent_Bystander You would be correct in thinking this. Personally I had reached this view through adding a preamp into my system to see if any improvement, I felt it was different but not better, others felt adding a preamp was an improvement.
I took the opportunity to message Chord and ask their view, their reply was that ’ In the case of a single source system they don’t advise it, the measurements that both units demonstrate are so similar as to simply be adding complexity to no real gain. However the moment that analogue sources come into play the analogue pre instantly makes sense ’
Of course it depends on the power amp, but to my ears the matching preamp for the DAVE, the PRIMA, sounds best with the ETUDE… and I hear from my trusted hifi dealer, that others have found similar conclusions…
Although I agree with DAVE sounding best to my ears when driving a preamp than directly to the poweramps I have tried… I don’t think it’s to do with the ‘quality’ of the components in DAVE, in my experience they are outstanding. It is for the electronic design and impedance matching between DAVE output and Poweamp. This is what a Preamp can do well as it is designed to do that, specifically when it’s designed for the respective Poweramp. Remember transmission lines are not typically used between source and poweramp. DAVE shares the same electronic stage for line out and its preamp out, so something will likely give…and my ears suggest it does.