My hifi dealer agreed with my assessment at the time of the Ultima pre demo. Currently I have active ATC’s but previously had the Etude and found the same, I’m not aware of your system, do you have analogue sources ?
I am aware that others, including yourself, feel that adding a preamp improves the DAVE, this isn’t my view or indeed Chord Electronic’s view.
I understood Bluesfan response as saying that the external standalone preamp as Chord Ultima is off better quality than the internal volume control of the Dave.
Simon uses passive ATC, whereas you use active. Maybe it’s a part of the explanation?
No DAVE currently into a Nait50 integrated preamp… To me the DAVE output just did not play as well in my opinion with certain poweramps including Chord’s matching Etude power-amp, and even some active speakers (non ATC) as compared to when using an appropriate preamp… really obvious to me… and I am sure to some in ‘Chord’ otherwise matching DAVE preamps like Prima would have a pass through. but some will have different tastes I am sure.
Of course it may work well with some poweramps, but more by luck in my opinion or specific taste.
If DAVE had a seperate amp stage for preamp and line out, them I might accept it could be more universally transparent… but it doesn’t.
Impedance matching is important across the audio band and hifi electronics tends to use lower input impedances for poweramps than preamp impedances often by around a factor of three … and of course these vary across the frequency band (slightly) as well as the effect possibly of reflections.
Of course if consumer hifi used impedance matched transmission lines between source, poweramp and or preamp, this would become all irrelevant as it truly would be plug and play… but it doesn’t… it uses an approximate matching method of low source impedance driving high input impedance… which is possibly why there can be so much variability across products inter working in terms of critical SQ performance.
But if you are happy without using a preamp in your setup, congratulations… it’s all about your personal preference and tastes… there is nothing ‘wrong’ with using or not using a preamp if you are happy with how it sounds… but clearly there are very different preferences on this…. Which is why hifi is such a subjective hobby!
In a smallish room, a Nait 50 and a really good source could be all you need .
I would certainly look at a try out , and yes there are some still around .
My guess is that it will have cult status
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Just get a dCS dac as they work fine with just about any amp, whatever they do just works, no messing about.
As said the new Apex output boards certainly are fantastic.
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I don’t think this is an explanation, I previously used PMC Twenty5 23 with Chord Etude amp and was of the same view.
I agree it’s all about personal preferences and tastes, if you are happy adding a preamp into your system that’s fine, there’s nothing wrong with using a preamp.
There are clearly different preferences expressed on this thread, I thought it would be useful to feedback the response from Chord which is somewhat different from yours.
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I appreciate your view as well but during the Chord demonstration late last year at the Audiobarn, the Chord representative was very clear about the improvement brought by inserting an Ultima 3 pre into the system after DAVE.
Hence, the Chord view appears to vary, depending on which Chord person each of us meets 
As ever, best to hear for ourselves and make up our own minds.
Best regards, BF
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I can only feedback my experience, which my Chord dealer agrees with, I didn’t think about it further until discussion in this thread. I decided to ask Chord the question,
" I currently have Chord Dave/Mscaler with Innuos Statement into active ATC speakers, would there be a benefit introducing a Chord preamp into my system ?"
I reported their response above.
I have no problem with Chord preamps and have read good reviews, as I said before adding a preamp in was different, not better…in my view.
Wishing you happy listening with your Ultima 2 it’s a fine bit of kit.
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Sounds like it has a proper preamp output stage built it to match certain poweramps, but obviously the performance will be subtly different if you drive a preamp input if you are using the same line output amp. By the way most of the Chord DACs work perfectly into power amps… its whether you like the impedance balance with the power amp and resultant audio presentation is key… not all power amps have the same impedance response as preamp inputs so there can be different sonic presentations (all very subtle of course) can appear. But I guess many of us are quite particular how we want our equipment to perform to suite our preferences.
It’s for a reason Naim recommend their NACs or NACs built into streamers to be used with their NAPs for assured performance. But I believe in the past they have designed special versions of NAPs for use with other preamps… I think one example was for the BBC, though @Richard.Dane would know I believe as I think I heard it from him originally,
Well said… I don’t believe there is any single Chord view… or they would state it in their product instructions, which they clearly don’t… or none of my Chord products did or do. I have discussed my Chord products with Chord for many years at shows, demonstrations, dealer events etc… including an interesting conversation with the renown Mr Watts… and the one underlying impression I get is that you tune to taste to your own personal tastes… there is no right or wrong way. So if you don’t want to use a preamp with DAVE then feel free not to, and the high resolution digital volume control makes it possible from a usability point of view… and if you want to use an mscaler with DAVE as you like what it does… then go ahead… though Mr Watts was incredibly proud of his mscaler… and I felt he wanted everybody to have one out of principle 
I hear what you are saying, but i and others have found things very different even with naim amps. Better results even with a naim amp without a matching naim pre and we all know that they are ment to work best together.
Never tried a dave without a pre amp as i ran the one i tried into my 552. Wish i had now.
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Sure … I used to use my DAVE into my 552. I also tried directly into my NAP250.2 just out of curiosity…. no way … that performance was not for me…. But yes I had heard some having success with some driving their 272 directly into ATC actives.
I tried at our mutual dealer….Dave into a 300……pretty awful. But you have to try these things yourself, to satisfy your own requirements. There is no fix for everyone, by any manufacturer.
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When my 552 went for a service a few years back I was doing some work near Hampton Court. I thought I’d take the opportunity to borrow one of the Townsend passive pre-amplifiers (called the Allegri) to try as the shop was very close.
Plugged into my 500 and CDP555 I have to say it sounded pretty awful. Flat, two dimensional and boring! It made the 500 sound a bit like an old NAD I’d once owned. Needless to say it went back a week later and I used an old Olive 72 as my interim pre-amp, which was miles better! With a 500 the 552 is a such integral and critical part of the system I don’t think it’s worth bothering with anything else. I’ve certainly never had the urge after the Allegri and that was supposedly a very good SOTA passive pre-amplifier!
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Some interesting views and experiences here - in my own case, my experience only relates to the combination of Dave and amps I named, with and without the one preamp. I accept my view might change if I were to use some other power amp, or a different preamp. different preamp. But a Chord Ultima simply isn’t going to happen without a lottery win - when I might be tempted to try a DCS Rossini Apex without a pre to compare against Dave with an Ultima pre: after all the price is similar.
As mentioned in my last post, when I have time I will do the comparison again with my present power amp, but it may be a few weeks or months.
And Dave has a very low output impedance, so the lower power amp input impedance is arguably a better match than feeding a preamp input?
I’m not sure any preamp output impedances are actually matched to power amp input impedances, it usually being simply the power amp input higher than pre out?
It isn’t … that would be a transmission line that I refer to… but the impedance response is…
The pre of the Etude is not on the level of the Ultima …