English Premier or International (HiFi) - Chord DAVE vs Linn Organik DACs

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi I_B,

Sorry to keep you in suspense. Re the before and after Christmas thing, your suggestions are all good candidates. But I feel it is more likely due to one or both of the following:-

I was the one switching the cables in the before Christmas listening period - so there is no data for me pre-Christmas. My wife was the sole listening candidate. Before Christmas there were three separate listening sessions on three separate days - the first did not have fully calibrated volume consistency - but was informative nonetheless.

After Christmas when I was the listening candidate. My wife had full control over the test condition play order. Unfortunately she created a play order for the tests that had one unit as the second in each play session. I.e. unit comparison play order not fully randomised. I need to have that potential (play order) bias eliminated in any of the remaining sessions.

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi All,

Sixty (60) years ago in 1966 there was a well-known (at least in England) World Cup Final held at Wembley Stadium in London.

2026 is also a World Cup year and in a few months I hope to ‘stream’ the Semi Final and Final of the loudspeaker cable selection matches chez moi. (See build up in thread link here.).

Audience Response:
“Who cares. And anyway what does E of E know about electromagnetic loudspeakers, cables, amplifiers and vibration and acoustic controlling DSP systems?”

Perhaps you have seen the Six (6) Degrees of Freedom Audio Thread?
The 6 Degree of Freedom electromagnetic mount posted at the above link was one of many (tens) designed to support the (typically very noisy) machinery rafts inside naval vessels. To get these mounts to successfully lift and quieten the several ton machinery raft(s) they were coordinated and controlled by a Multi Input Multi Output (MIMO) low latency digital signal processing system.

The total capability of that experimental system was published (i.e. in the public domain) in January 1996…

Image & Publication: GEC Marconi Research & GEC Alsthom Gas Turbines, Eureka Magazine.
Original Image of the publication: Author provided, no reuse.

One of the many 6 DoF Electromagnetic Mounts:

Image & Publication: GEC Marconi Research & GEC Alsthom Gas Turbines, Eureka Magazine.
Original Image of the publication: Author provided, no reuse.

The Digital Signal Processing System…

Images & Publication: GEC Marconi Research & GEC Alsthom Gas Turbines, Eureka Magazine.
Original Image of the publication: Author provided, no reuse.

Thanks for your interest in this thread. I hope to see you all later this year at the Semi Final and Finals of the loudspeaker cable selection competitions.

PS: This January, thirty (30) years have passed since my role as Chief Systems Engineer on the above experimental research system.

[rsch]

I always hated football!

[Ardbeg10y]

Which reminded me of this article:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/cheap-and-quiet-submarine-sweden-sunk-us-navy-aircraft-carrier-wargame-210874

It was written elsewhere, but I remember the story.

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi,

Thanks for the link - interesting articles.

Perhaps you might be further interested in the text and more photos from the original Eureka magazine article. If you cannot quite see all the details of the words or numbers in the text, I could provide answers to reasonable questions.

Images & Publication: GEC Marconi Research & GEC Alsthom Gas Turbines,
Eureka Magazine.
Original Image of the publication: Author provided, no reuse.

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi @Innocent_Bystander and all,

I have previously described the kind of discipline I try to incorporate into any listening sessions I undertake when evaluating HiFi systems. Example available here: ‘Masked’ Listening Tests.

Listening tests regarding Linn Klimax DSM3 with Organik DAC vs Chord DAVE DAC.

@Edmund-of-Essex

Digital source for Chord DAVE is/was SPDIF from Linn DSM SPDIF digital output - after Linn SO (if enabled) but before Linn digital volume control. Volume level consistency for listening tests of Chord DAVE and Linn DSM measured using calibrated microphone at listening position and confirmed with SPL tool in REW.

Here are the Key Elements of Test Procedure:
a). Tests conducted using 7 participants (3 females, 4 males).
b). Each participant had dedicated and independent (of other participants) listening sessions.
c). Each participant selected their own short pieces of familiar music (each 4 – 5 minutes long).
d). Selected music genres included blues, classic orchestral, jazz/folk, Latin, opera and rock.
e). Participants were not informed of the nature of the test.
f). Each session had a 20 minute ‘settling in’ period to set a comfortable volume level.
g). The subsequent active evaluation periods exposed the listener to their selected short pieces of music played twice (see special note below).
h). Listener was asked to state their preference (either first time or second time) for each play.
i). Depending on the time available, some participants had three sessions, some two.

Note: Order of play was ‘mixed up’ for each participant music play session with the intention of eliminating any potential bias introduced through the order of listening.

To introduce the participant to their session there was a verbal introduction (read from a script).

Note: Between each play of music track, the participant was required to leave the room to permit any equipment changes. I was not in the room as any evaluation was taking place.

Before posting the results I wish to share some difficulties in obtaining ‘trustworthy’ results - even with the above level of apparent ‘discipline’ applied to such listening sessions.

Please feel free to comment on the above method, identifying areas for improvement (unfortunately this particular set of assessments now concluded), thank you.

E of E

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi rsch,

Thanks for your observation.

I too don’t really have much interest in Football, but I would not go as far to say ‘I hated it’.
In fact I am quite envious of the competitive but supportive camaraderie visible in the various conversations on the footballing threads, even to the extent of finding the ‘banter’ entertaining (and informative).

Each to their own I suppose.

[rsch]

I’m sorry for this stament, but i really hate and always hatedf ootball and all its world around, especially the entertainment and TV shows on this. Forty/fifty years ago, that’s was on Sunday only. Now every day every / every month. Btw Someone else hates cars perhaps, so what’s the problem?

[Edmund-of-Essex]

That’s OK, I hope I don’t cause you (or anyone else) annoyance by my trying to make a joke of testing HiFi components using footballing competition analogies? My apologies if I do.

All the best,

E of E

PS: I do recognise describing my HiFi evaluations in this way could be considered a bit ‘crass’.

[rsch]

No annoyance at all, it was just my though about football and in a broad about sports on TV.

ATB

Roberto

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi @Innocent_Bystander and any Chord DAVE DAC and Linn Organik DAC users,

Well here it is, the results of Chord DAVE vs Linn Organik DAC evaluation. However before I get into the details I would like to make the following statement:-

These results apply only for the experiments undertaken - they cannot be considered general in any way - and in fact are perhaps more useful as an indicator of the problems of ‘ears’ based listening to establish preference when selecting HiFi equipment.

The key elements of the test procedure are described above (7 participants, ..etc…). All bar one of the participants had listened to music before on previous occasions in this media room - and were hence aware of the short reverberation time (link to REW charts).

Nevertheless, in conducting these tests there were two (2) significant issues:-*
First was that requirement e) could NOT be met for two of the participants.

@Edmund-of-Essex

e). Participants were not informed of the nature of the test.

Obviously, myself and my wife knew that the sessions were evaluating DACs, and even though we could ‘mask’ the specifics for our respective listening sessions from each other - fundamentally it is not a masked trial for me and Mrs E of E. In other words we potentially already have certain ‘expectations’ going into the tests.

To illustrate this point I will later show two graphs. One with mine and my wife’s data included, the other without that data (just 5 fully ‘masked’ participants’ data).

Second, was that requirement i) could not be met for one particular participant.

@Edmund-of-Essex

i). Depending on the time available, some participants had three sessions, some two.

The participant had selected particular tracks and because the media room now is so close to a ‘live’ experience, after the first pair of plays the participant was so emotionally affected they could not continue to their second track selection (i.e. they only had one session).

Results:
As a reminder, here is what each participant was asked to do:-

@Edmund-of-Essex

h). Listener was asked to state their preference (either first time or second time) for each play.

Data for all seven (7) participants (not fully ‘masked’ trial):

Original Data and Image: Author provided, no reuse.

Data for fully masked trial, five (5) independent participants:

Original Data and Image: Author provided, no reuse.

*Note: There was a third ‘difficulty’ which was to change the listening chair to account for a more elderly participant. This shifted the listening position 15cm to the rear so listening was undertaken with a slightly different acoustic presentation from the other participants.

OK, let the flak begin…

[Innocent_Bystander]

@Edmund-of-Essex

This shifted the listening position 15cm to the rear so listening was undertaken with a slightly different acoustic presentation from the other participants.

Irrelevant really for comparison of the DACs, as long as said participant’s position for each was consistent for each. I presume Linn SO was either off for both DACs, or happening in the streaming source and so presented equally to the two DACs (sorry, I know you have previously described the setup, but I haven’t delved back), however if the latter, given that the SO doesn’t use a mic but doing by calculation, is there any possibility that it presumes a Linn DAC?

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi I_B,

You are correct re participants position just being required to be consistent between plays of tracks.

Re Linn SO being on or off - it was OFF. Magico Titan15 Sub bass was also OFF.

The SPDIF digital output configuration is Fixed ‘level’ - there is NO volume control - that is why I needed to get accurate volume calibration points established prior to the main evaluations.

Here is a picture of the note that captures some calibration points for the evaluations:

The Linn does permit selection of ‘Post EQ’ on the SPDIF output, so I could have run the experiments with that enabled for both Linn Organik and Chord DAVE.

I chose to use the most basic approach (RAW) as I thought that would be more ‘clean’ from an experimental PoV and would avoid any potential noise or ‘modulation’ due to SO operating appearing on the SPDIF digital output and disadvantaging the connected Chord DAVE. In doing the experiments this way, I think that addresses your question re Linn SO potentially knowing about the ‘characteristics’ of the Linn Organik DAC, and thereby having some advantage?

BTW, the HiFi retailer loaned me a high grade (c.f. expensive) Digital SPDIF cable for this activity. Here is a picture of the equipment arrangement:

Original Image: Author provided, no reuse.

The other thing is that both Linn DSM source and Chord DAVE DAC were plugged into the same unswitched wall mounted double socket - which is star connected to a dedicated consumer unit - so minimisation of noise from other or adjacent equipment (most of which was OFF). Both Linn and Chord units employ switched mode PS, if either of them were generating noise and ‘interfering’ with each other - then tough! - they really shouldn’t.

[rhodsutton]

Looking forward to Linn Vs Chord Vs Chifi

[Innocent_Bystander]

Interesting! (I’ve never heard Linn DSM so have no view of my own). Os there any significant detail with regard to the odd one out? (E.g. you, the person with the different seat position, someone wearing hearing aids (or not), maybe someone with red hair, etc)?

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi I_B,

I am glad you have studied the results and asked a very good question - which I will answer.

However before I do, I want to share something. You may recall post number 335 (here) where I explained was interested in obtaining the certain ‘sweetness’ of the treble I had experienced elsewhere. Borrowing the Chord DAVE was part of that investigation.

Intellectually and emotionally, I wanted to have no preconceived ideas or expectation of the outcome of any investigation. This (I think we know) is very difficult in HiFi!

Before I started with the DAC evaluations I already had an Idea to improve the ‘sweetness of the treble’ in my media room by adjusting some of the room treatment. Specifically, to move four of the GIK Acoustic Gotham N23 diffusers from their left and right positions behind the loudspeakers to instead form a central block with the existing N23 diffusers lower down in the centre.

At that point I had already improved the acoustic - but still I wanted to know would the Chord DAVE DAC and/or the Acustica Applicata DaaD offer further improvement?

If the outcome of the DAC evaluations had been to the other extreme (i.e. Chord DAVE = 9, Linn Organik = 1), two thought questions:-

1. How would I have felt?
2. What might I have posted?

Hopefully, I would have posted the result.

The practical outcome for such a result would be that I might consider trading in my Linn Klimax DSM with Organik DAC and purchasing the Chord DAVE (in the Black finish). But then I would need the front end streamer to add to that, along with the necessary CABLES

I .e. The HiFi merry go round of choosing an appropriate front end etc etc.

Additional background information is that I (simply!) want to bring the quality of audio on my Movie watching up to the audio quality level of the main Music Stereo playback.

If Chord DAVE had been our preferred choice I would have bought and (perhaps) traded in the Linn Klimax DSM to either the hub variant (cheaper) using trade to offset the purchase cost of the Chord DAVE. Adding either Linn Exactbox or Linn Classic DSM for the movie playback.

The thing is:- the Linn Organik DAC and Linn Space Optimisation suited my needs at the time of my purchase 2021). In 2021, I nearly bought the dCS Rossini (without the clock box), Linn just got lucky by launching just at the right moment with improved SO.

Edit: At this point I had been using an ND5 XS and then an ND5 XS2.

As an aside, if I were a mid-twentysomething (or even mature student), with a mid-20s budget in my pocket (and being the technically minded student that I was in 1980s) - What would I do…?

I would look into the Naim CI-102 - as for all the assessment done above - it has already been established to hold its own against the Linn Klimax DSM3 with Organik DAC here.

YMMV.

PS: The odd one out in the results was the person who had not experienced the short reverberation time ever before and (in their own words) “got distracted by listening to the different instruments the musicians could be heard playing”. Their specific vote distribution was Linn selections = 2, Chord selections = 1. Also, they are a musician and play in a local band.

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi rhodsutton,

Thanks for your interest in this thread!

Every day is a school day - I had to look up the meaning of ‘Chifi’. Thanks to you, now I know!

Current schedule for competition (in 2026) is DIY vs English vs German loudspeaker cables.

Could do ‘Chifi’ later this year (depends who is still trading), OR Ethernet Cables?

Do you have any specific ‘Chifi’ products of interest?

[rhodsutton]

Hi Edmund

I have no specific models in mind, though there are several that, I’m sure, would give your panel of testers a challenge to tell apart from Linn and Chord.

All under £3000, but I also suggest a wildcard - Topping D10 balanced (£130) - to make things interesting.

[JamesBKK]

How about DACs from LAiV (Singaporean), Audio GD, Denafrips? All getting very good reviews.

The amp I have just bought from Kinki Studio (the Dazzle) is astonishingly good.

[Innocent_Bystander]

Thanks for your detailed and informative reply?.