I think I just lost one (a possible new Naim lover)

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi All,

Very many thanks to all the contributors thus far! I am trying to keep up with the discussions.
I would like to try again at giving some context regarding the thread from my POV.

First, an immediate observation: To my reading there have been many ‘truths’ already written in the contributions to this thread.

One truth I would like to particularly reinforce is one can get a really excellent sound and listening experience in one’s own home WITHOUT spending mega amounts of money.

However, having owned sufficiently good HiFi (from an acoustic performance perspective) - with system changes at moderate budgets from 1986 until 2020 - I recognise that prices of ‘high end items’ can create desire or implied ‘value’ in the mind of a potential purchaser.

I am also aware that there can be some ‘ego stroking’ that can happen if one purchases the ‘top of the range’ of whatever (be that HiFi, cars, houses, boats, jewellery, antiques etc etc).
I cannot deny that this has been a very recent part of my HiFi journey.

Nevertheless, there is something that is very important to me - a behaviour that I like to exhibit and stay true to:- To be honest with yourself and others.

This is where I find difficulties in engaging with certain parts of the HiFi industry (be that retailers or manufacturers). The reason for starting this thread is that I feel that Focal/NAIM are a manufacturer that Can be Trusted to be Honest and Truthful.
Unfortunately, in my experience, not all manufacturers and promoters of HiFi can be trusted.

This thread is an endeavour to share ideas of how to best communicate the enjoyment we experience with excellent music replay (via the Brands we Trust) with our friends (who may not yet really understand the potential rewards).

A side effect of this (and any subsequent activities) will hopefully be to expand the TRUST people might feel regarding HiFi brands that exhibit Honesty and Truth in their Communications and Behaviours. As stated above, I believe Focal/Naim to be such an example.

The two examples I have provided in this thread of friends getting benefit from improved music replay were not undertaken as some ‘conversion’ to our hobby. It was genuinely a surprise to me that both my friend (in particular) and neighbour (in a small way) now have more understanding of the possibilities of HiFi music replay and the moderate (!) amount of extra spend one needs to achieve a really improved sound experience.

PS: Please do keep posting your thoughts.

[Nigel1957]

@Edmund-of-Essex

Unfortunately, in my experience, not all manufacturers and promoters of HiFi can be trusted.

This thread is an endeavour to share ideas of how to best communicate the enjoyment we experience with excellent music replay (via the Brands we Trust) with our friends (who may not yet really understand the potential rewards).

I came across a thread on another site where a firm selling expensive wires and connectors claimed they sold to hospitals via their medical division. Somebody in the medical profession showed that they were not in fact certified to sell connecting cables as medical products. They actually mailed the firm to ask about their certification.

It pays to do a little research into the company you were thinking of buying gear from. The long established firms are long established, because they are serious.

[PerF]

@Nigel1957

Remember the sound quality at most concerts is piss poor. The exception is Classical music in the right hall.

I’m happy you got the last words written, nothing comes close to a symphony orchestra in a good concert hall.

[Nigel1957]

@Blacknote

Well some expenses are just out of this world and, despite understanding them in the context of Hi-Fi, I can’t really justify them for the law of dimishing returns. However people worries so much about prices in the Hi-Fi world… but what about other hobbies and interests? Many are equally or more expensive. The easiest (and more popular) is cars. I don’t hear people complaining or being worried about that, I suppose it’s more acceptable.

My big interest in life is photography. I wince at the cost of cameras and lenses, but the cost of photographic gear is still on Planet Earth, even for the good stuff. That Ferrari, that I would love to own, has its price tag justified by what you get when they hand you the keys. Hi Fi prices have spun out of control I believe compared to many other hobbies. I believe it is a bit like my watch which cost €2000 a few years ago. Now the same watch costs €6000. I am told Omega wanted to “reposition” themselves in the marketplace, when I had my watch serviced a few weeks ago.

[Blacknote]

I love photography as well and it’s a very important part of my life, so I do understand you. Generally speaking you can get a good camera still at an expensive but reasonable price. However some models now cost a little fortune, at least 30-40% more than the one they replaced. Cars now cost double too and aren’t necessariliy better (eg. Porsche 911 is an example). Prices have gone crazy everywhere unluckily.

Hi-Fi prices have gone crazy. Regarding the Naim world I can’t think of the prices of pre/amps few years ago compared to the “little” 222 / 250 combo. Quite a difference and hard to ignore.

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi @frenchrooster ,

No, not quite. But since you asked, here is my HiFi upgrade journey…

Student System (1980-1986):
Source: Philips D8334 Tape Deck (playing cassettes of vinyl albums recorded at home on B&O).
Amplifier (integrated): Home Made (using bits from spare Ultra Model 6018 plug-in stereo unit).
Loudspeaker: Home Made Mono (using drivers from spare Ultra Model 6018 plug-in stereo unit).
No Image Available.

Main System - 1986 (purchased with money earned from electronics assembly contract at Uni):-
Digital Only Source: Philips Electronics CD 304,
Amplifier (Integrated): Rotel 840 BX (enhanced by me upgrading decoupling in power supply),
Loudspeakers: Monitor Audio R652 (two-way, reflex loaded with integrated stands, in light oak).

Original Image: Author Provided, No Reuse.

Main System - 2003 (purchased with money earned from working and saving for 17 years):-
Digital Only Source: Naim CD5,
Amplifier (Integrated): Naim Nait 5,
Loudspeakers: Linn Ninka (two-way, infinite baffle floor mount, in cherry veneer).

Original Image: Author Provided, No Reuse.

Second System - 2012 (purchased to have music available in two rooms):-
Digital Only Source: Naim ND5XS,
Amplifier (Integrated): Rega Brio (owned by Mrs E of E),
Loudspeakers: Neat Motive SE2 (two-way, bass-reflex floor mount, in American walnut veneer).
No Image Available.

Main System - 2020 (purchased via trade-ins and earnings from working/saving over 34 years).
Digital Only Source (inc Pre): Linn Klimax DSM,
Amplifier (Power): ATI 4005 - adding (for stereo only) Linn Klimax Solo 800 (in 2025),
Loudspeakers: Magico M2, SCC, S1.5 - adding Titan15 sub bass (in 2025).
Images Distributed elsewhere on Forum!

ATB

E of E

[frenchrooster]

A kind of joke because the step between 2012 system and 2020 one is very big.

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Yes it was a big jump. I am not sure it was completely necessary - I just removed any previous budget constraint I had applied when buying HiFi.

PS: I have added my ‘Student System’ into my previous post if you wish to go back and re-read.

[juliushui]

Hey I’m defo on the same boat. I’m passionate about the passionate sound of Naim products, but I wouldn’t bother to ‘evangelise’ – things always being pushed to another side if trying too hard, in my personal experience.
Let one to tap all the fun himself and he would stay long with the brand. ‘Healthier’ way to go – afaik lot of Naim bashers were once Naim lovers but got pushed too hard by Naim’s marketing when young.

[frenchrooster]

My first system was Technics entry level deck with Denon integrated.
Then Rega brio, Rega P3, Rega Apollo cd player.
Then Rega Mira, P25, Rega Jupiter. Then Naim 112/150, 202/200…and so on. The biggest step was going from Rega P9 Exact to SME 20/ SME V / Koetsu black.

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi @juliushui ,

Thanks for your particular post - it is insightful. Following your posts (and earlier posts by @Alley_Cat and others) I have decided to amend the first sentence in the introductory posting - by removing the specific ‘Naim (& Focal)’ promotion suggestion.

Regarding your observations re (historical) Naim Marketing messages - I also have personally experienced ambivalence to Naim products. In my case, this came from the incessant claim in the marketing presentations that there is somehow a ‘unique’ Naim sound with PRAT.

That is not to suggest that Naim products are not good - they are very good. It is just that when a company talks rubbish - they are actually undermining their brand with some potential customers. As others have also noted, the HiFi industry does seem to have a tendency to promote products using untrustworthy styles of communication and (in some extreme cases) completely FALSE claims.

The current state of the art of technology for music replay for personal enjoyment is such that the business model used by Naim since its formation is no longer valid. Hence the current transition period where a new internal signal processing and electronics architecture has been established and explorative products (c.f. the insides of the Naim CI-102 and Focal/Naim Hekla) are being launched to see where the future market demand might really take off.

For what it’s worth, I put myself in the ‘dinosaur’ category of HiFi purchasers. I.e. someone who still thinks it is necessary to have much of the electronics separate from the loudspeaker and separate boxes to keep the different bits of electronics separate from each other.

It need not be this way - the Focal Diva Utopia (and Linn 360 types) are just two excellent examples of the future possibilities.

In the meantime - my idea behind this thread is to engage our collective enjoyment and enthusiasm for really beautiful music replay and share it with others so they too might discover what is possible (with a small increase in financial outlay from what they might have otherwise considered).

If this activity happens to help Focal/Naim then ‘competition’ will continue between the Trustworthy brands of HiFi - and ultimately consumers (like us) will benefit.

[Blacknote]

Funny thing I didn’t even like Naim the first time I’ve tested one of its products, I think it was the NAC272. Few years later I found myself with an almost full Naim system, how funny (and not because of some marketing exercise. My present very competent dealer, showed me some properly setup Naim systems). I do love Naim and its sound, it works very well for me. I haven’t seen many brands that capture the ethos of music the way Naim does. But I would not “evangelise” it too as there are some other great products around and there’s no right or wrong. I’ve tested great amps from Exposue, Rega and Moonriver. They all have their qualities and they are all great in their own way, I just chose what move my love for music, as easy as that. I’m confident it was the same for you.

@juliushui

Naim bashers were once Naim lovers

I’ve noticed that as well!! Isn’t it a bit odd? I’ve never hated any products I’ve bought for my Hi-Fi to be honest (even my beloved Naim streamer despite all the problems with the FW update).

[omegaman]

That your misses looking over you while you pick your nose reflection in tv

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Probably. I did a quick effort to process and blur the reflection in the TV - but in the end the results were not effective and looked poor - so I retained the reflections.

PS: I heard a rumour that BBC Verify are trying to confirm the allegation of me picking my nose.

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi @Nigel1957

I just realised I missed responding this posting of yours - very many thanks for your input.

I think (perhaps even know) which specific brand of HiFi company your post refers ?
(My observation is that some on the Naim forum use products by that particular company.)

Nevertheless, even your suggestion below (for buying products from long established companies) does not guarantee the trustworthiness of communication from such a company (in my experience).

@Nigel1957

It pays to do a little research into the company you were thinking of buying gear from. The long established firms are long established, because they are serious.

I would like to share just one recent example to illustrate my point…

Whilst trying to choose a particular set of isolation platforms sold by a UK HiFi retailer, I was introduced to some of the special loudspeaker cables they sold. I was sufficiently interested to even listen to these cables at the retailers premises.

Long story short, I thought these cables may be worth investigating further…so I started my usual (highly technical) enquires via the retailer and subsequently direct with the manufacturer.

FYI the manufacturers webpage uses words like ‘golden ratio’ and ‘resonance’ when promoting their very expensive loudspeaker cables. The problem is that much of what is written is technically meaningless, for example using the word ‘resonance’ without clarifying in which domain (i.e. electrical or mechanical) this term applies. There are other highly questionable Claims present on the website.

Furthermore, when both the retailer and manufacturer were asked to clarify (in writing) a specific Claim regarding their loudspeaker cable products, the response I received was as follows:-

“We are also genuinely grateful that you drew our attention to the phrase on our website. That particular wording referred to the original XXXXX speaker cables from nearly 20 years ago, which had a completely different design. As it is no longer applicable, we will remove the outdated phrase in our next website update. We truly appreciate your attentiveness in noticing this.”

Note 1: I have blanked out (using XXXXX) the specific brand and type of loudspeaker cable as I am still waiting for the manufacturer to update their website.

Note 2: The copyright claim on the manufacturers website shows date coverage from 2021 to 2026 and there is no ‘small print’ disclaimer that I can find anywhere on the website.

[Nigel1957]

I am curious to know how the Greek geometric Golden Ratio can be useful in the design of electrical components.

Psychoacoustics is at the heart of a lot of the HiFi accessory trade I believe.

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi @Nigel1957

It is the case that Fibonacci sequences are sometimes used in the creation of designs of antennas and other such electromagnetic devices.

My assessment of the (Loudspeaker) Cable Manufacturer referred in my post above is that they are simply trying to use phrase ‘Golden Ratio’ to try and target a main competitor that they have - which would be Cardas Audio.

Cardas Audio hold the US Patent 4,628,151 (Multi-strand conductor cable having its strands sized according to the ‘Golden Section’) which helps Cardas Audio in trying to persuade potential customers that their cables are better than any other.

I have my own views on all of this - having tested (acoustically) and measured electrical parameters of two types of Cardas Audio loudspeaker cable and also measured (but not acoustically tested) the competing brand of cable referred in my post above.

If you have any further questions - just ask.

However I am keen to get back to the main point of this thread - which is:-

@Edmund-of-Essex

to engage our collective enjoyment and enthusiasm for really beautiful music replay and share it with others so they too might discover what is possible (with a small increase in financial outlay from what they might have otherwise considered).

PS: Quick update regarding the friend who was asking me about the Naim Atom HE product (last month) following my involving him in the Naim CI-102 evaluation in August last year.

Last week he emailed me about the Barco takeover! - So even though he did not buy any Naim gear, he is clearly interested in what is happening in the Naim world.

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi Blacknote (and others who may be interested),

I just cannot believe it - my mate has just emailed me with a link to some (grounding) products from the Entreq brand.

Although I was aware of the Entreq brand I have never considered it necessary to pay too much attention to their website or products. Following his email to me - I did what many Naim forum users do - to undertake a search for existing threads on the Naim Community forum containing the word ‘Entreq’. Oh my goodness, it seems there have been some interesting debates a few times on this forum regarding products from Entreq .

Furthermore, my mate also sent me a separate email with a link to an AI assisted search (Grok) for liquid cooled loudspeaker cables that he had undertaken. (I think he did that because today when we met I had briefly mentioned the copper pipe loudspeaker cable experiment I have planned).

I think my friend really is in the deep end now (of HiFi investigation)!

[Blacknote]

Hi @Edmund-of-Essex ,

as said previously, your friend just needed time to digest the hobby. So it seems time has worked its magic right?

I’m no expert about Entreq, but I remember this product because of its funny shape:

Curiosity is always important and your friend might be on the right path now. I would suggest him not depending on web searches and dealers’ opinions only. Surely he needs to gain knowledge in the first place and that might take some time, but then he should come to his own conclusions. SQ is so subjective and we all have our different take on it. Also over time we might change what we aim for in music reproduction.

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi @Blacknote

You were correct - it only needed a little more time for my friend to ‘get into’ the hobby.

What I find particularly amusing is that he emailed me a link to these products on the Entreq website - they are grounding boxes for in car use ONLY! Perhaps less surprising is that even within this specific product category there are four grades/performance levels available:-

Good (Gaia 1), Better (Gaia T), Best (Olympus X), Outstanding (Olympus X T).

Image Copyright: Entreq

Consider the marketing claim…

“The improvement and impact on the sound system, as well as the rest of the car’s driving performance, is distinct and obvious.”

BTW, these things add 60kg to the mass of the car.

The irony is that in trying to consider audio products from brands we might trust, in the same week that my friend sent me the information about Entreq grounding boxes for fitting in cars, I received a marketing email from Focal/Naim regarding some in-car audio possibility…

Naim Partners | Naim Audio

Must be that in-car audio is where the money is these days?

Thought: Perhaps adding 60kg of audio gear to my Ford Fiesta or my friends pickup truck will improve their performance?