Absolutely, understood on those comments, just highlighting it as was thinking about it earlier today and was an interesting aside.
As you were.
Well I don’t think it’s a case of AI or guessing anything. The fact is that some speakers are more emotionally rewarding than others to listen to. These speakers do not possess AI as you correctly point out.
In absolute terms how would you know what emtional essence of the music has been captured in the recording? It is impossible to know this unless you have been present at all the recording sessions. Therefore it follows that your statement that if a speaker is accurate it will communicate whatever emotional essence of the music has been captured in the recording is not in any way helpful. You are attempting to judge the accuracy of a speaker without having any reference point to do so.
Therefore you are in no position at all to be able to say if a particular speaker is adding any false excitement to the music - not unless you have been at all the recording sessions as I said.
You can only judge a speaker by what you are hearing in your home and whether or not you like the sound. Accuracy to the signal or to the original performance will under normal circumstances be impossible to determine and equally of no consequence. All that matters is that you enjoy what you are hearing.
I’m afraid your arguments don’t hold up as put very simply you do not have control reference points. But please feel free to elighten me on how you are aware that your speakers are not making the music any more or less exciting than either the original performance or the recording of the original performance. I would be absolutely fascinated to know.
2 Likes
Please share which subs were used when you made that assessment. I used to have the same impression for more than 10 years until I tried a REL just recently. I then realised that the sub I was using in my system(s) for the past 10 years is garbage.
BTW, I am not disagreeing about the value of DSP room correction, just pointing out it has limitations. Whilst I tried Dirac and wasn’t convinced, I ended up applying my own DSP to even out some of the peaks, and can switch between two settings when I move the speakers between general purpose and critical listening positions. Some people say DSP degrades the music - I can’t say I’ve ever noticed, but it is a question of degree - which degrades the music more, DSP or adverse room effects that can be tuned out? To me it is very much the latter, though if one has a perfect room ot may be different.
But all this is aside from the question of speakers making music exciting or fun, and is a long way from the OP’s problem with not having set up his sub properly!
I wouldn’t agree with that. With a poorly integrated sub, yes, that will be the case, although there are some who have tried a variety of speakers and consistently found that standmounts have worked better than floorstanders, without a sub.
If you can get the sub set up right, it can add a certain magic to music, even when it’s not particularly bassy.
As I may have said before, getting the sub setup just right isn’t easy, and it takes time and patience. In the wrong room it may even be impossible.
Ultimately if you can’t achieve good results you should either get rid of the sub or use it selectively for party music or AV.
2 Likes
Of course I don’t know what the sound was as recorded, but what struck me and led to my first post on the subject was statements along the lines of ‘speaker X makes music fun’. Regarding reference points, I have two: One is how close music (across the range of styles to which I listen, particularly including classical, prog rock, heavy rock, solo piano and opera) sounds to what I hear at live performances - which may be the same music, or similar music by the same artist, or otherwise just similar music. Not a reference relating to the specific recording, but to what the whole reproduction chain is achieving. The other, though to a much lesser extent, is information gleaned from reviews by professional reviewers who I assume are more knowledgeable and experienced than I.
Well you are certainly correct on the LS3/5a’s Pete
I tried a pair of Falcon’s and promptly returned
No emotion for me
1 Like
My statement did not refer to any particular speaker, but to the principle. In that respect it is entirely meaningful, and requires no reference point for me.
I submit Your Honour that there is no case to answer.
As well any loudspeaker or home replay system should - or what’s the point of it? But don’t confuse the word ‘fun’ with ‘exciting’. Not the same thing.
This statement in isolation is fine. Your inference however is that a speaker that sounds ‘exciting’ is adding something false that was not present in the original performance or the recording. My question to you is how you are apparently able to determine this. Short answer - you can’t.
Good point on the Sub reference 
I guess my point being it’s interesting to see the direction speaker manufacturers are taking and going as far as integrating DSP room correction in to the speaker, I think a first implimentstion directly within a speaker in the case of the Dynaudio Focus.
I can see at some point that room correction could be implimented dynamically and adaptive in real time to your point, whilst not being possible today probably not too far out from a compute perspective.
Back on topic if I were Stephen, I’d be inclined to spend some time getting
some accurate measurments of the listening space and experimenting with room layout and speaker positioning first and foremost.
1 Like
No confusion in my mind - I mentioned both because some people have said one, some the other. My point is that music is not only about fun and excitement, rather emotion and engagement - which are quite different (hence my raising it).
I merely made an observation about people referring to some speakers making music fun or exciting, as opposed to reproducing music that is fun or exciting [equally as well as music that is not]. If this were a court case (and appearing as an expert witness in court is something of which I have substantial experience), I would seek expert opinion from the likes of recording engineers - but it is not, as the first part of this reply clarifies.
I feel Stephen reaching for his popcorn….
Rel, Sunfire, Monitor Audio, at different times over the years. My floor standing speakers have always provided ample low end and I’ve never thought I needed more. I’m listening to my Ovators with a 250DR and it makes no sense (to me) to add a sub to this combo.
1 Like
Hopefully not before setting up his sub properly!
1 Like
I’ve read many good things about the specially small designed Kef KC62 sub, Stephen, it may be worth researching. I believe it’s the sub that I will be going with after I move house.
Like IB said, when a piece of music is supposed to have a solid bass line or effect and it’s not there, the music just doesn’t move me. For me, it’s things like the buzz of the double bass strings, or a nice electric bass line in rock. Even the violins lower strings are more present with excellent bass.
I have no doubts in my mind that the n-SUB is of the highest quality and was designed primarily to match up with the n-SATs. The last thing i want to be doing here is swapping out the n-SUB and to try and match up with other manufacturers subs.
Playing around with positioning is going to take some experimentation and time. Of course, the sub’s weight can be rather off putting in wanting to do so, so at the moment i’m looking for a suitable trolly that will easily move the sub into position with the minimum of effort. I currently have six metres of interconnect leads to move around with.
Some great suggestions made above to just have only the sub playing whilst moving it in and around the listening position. Unfortunately my room is also my living space so i’m a little limited as to what i can and cannot do as regards to positioning. The great thing with n- SATs is that i have only set them up once about a year ago and got them right ‘straight off the bat’ and so have never felt the need to move those around fine tuning , so i only have the sub to deal with at this present time.
Thanks all for your contributions.
2 Likes
What about swapping out for S400 Ovators!!!
Only joking ST 
1 Like
The problem with adding a sub is that it’s one more thing to fret about…are the settings right for this type of music?…what about that type?, and so on, when all you want to do is sit down, press play and boom! it just all works and sounds fantastic.
G
That is an important point you make. If one is satisfied with the overall bass performance of the speakers, then just leave it alone. I’d agree.
Out of curiosity, may I ask the REL model which you tried with the S400 which produced a dismal result?