Innuos Zen Mini - a Journey into Streaming Audio

Back at home now and have through read your reply properly - superb! Yes, this is a great help and just the sort of user experience and insight I was looking for. This gives me a rough blueprint as to how the Zen can work into more than one system and multi room set up here, so is something I’m now really curious about.

Lots to think about and digest, but It does look like I’m going to be enquiring further about the Zen.

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Latest step in the journey…

Recently spent some more time back at the dealer - @BasicallySound - exploring next steps.

This time, looking in more detail at adding a PSU to our nDAC. Also, found time to audition floor standing speakers again and one or two other distractions in the day too. First, here is a reminder of the last steps, back in March.

Since then, the ND5 XS2 has come into our house. As we move towards completing a second system, second room, etc. The Naim streamer arrived as a birthday treat over the summer. Also, following a good look at NC 200 series, deciding on Original Classic SN3 c/w HiCap DR too.

So current set up, for our other room, best digital source first, is now as a follows :+1:
ND5 XS2 → DC1 → nDAC → HiLine → SN3 + HC DR → NACA5.

The ND5 XS2 is currently being used more, in preference to our ZENmini, while we get to know it and how it works and sounds.

The ZENMini is still there, doing a job, performing duties as Roon Core and streaming from SSD server (for CD archive collection).

Anyway, back at the dealers and findings…

First off, we replicated our system at home, combining own pieces and their demo stock.

For this dealer demo’, various floor standing speakers were used, throughout the day. But, for the first part, PMC Twenty5 23i, which has probably become a reference point, or constant, when ever visiting BS showrooms.

After, tuning in with a few familiar tracks, went straight in to the main event, which was adding a 555PS DR to our nDAC. Spent the next hour or two exploring different types of music to test its metal.

Naim 555 PS DR is a glorious option
It becomes quickly obvious the combination of Naim streamer ND5 XS2 → Naim DAC + Naim 555Ps DR is stunning good.


Image : Current system, with 555PS DR (bottom shelf) added to nDAC

Honesty, it was such an exciting experience, sat in that demo’ room, playing favourite tracks, sounding so so good.

Here is an attempt to add some words to what is heard by adding a PSU to the nDAC. Going from my thoughts and notes, at the time…
The music becomes clearer, notes better defined. Easier to follow. More grip on everything, which is most noticeable with bass notes. In many ways, seems like less bass. But more like better defined, faster, quicker start and end to bass notes. More control, less mushy. The whole musical sound stage and coherence of everything improves, with better separation between musicians and instruments.

The 555 PS does that better than a XPS.

Relative judgements then spring to mind. One choice or option, relative to another.

Money no object, you would choose the 555PS, no problem. However, think the XPS PSU offers most of the gain, with adding any PSU. To put a number on this, maybe 75% of the gain. Something like that. In other words you don’t really get twice the improvement, matching the difference in cost between these two options. Maybe the difference in cost, will open up more, now that XPS will only ever be available as pre-loved.

The fact the 555 PS DR will continue - available new - for a few years yet, might be a deciding factor here, when we come to this future decision.

We shall see.
This choice might come down to what’s available at the time and what can be afforded. I’m now wishing for the 555 PS. But might settle for a XPS DR too.

The intention is to add new speakers first, with luck, perhaps in 2024.

With time to spare, then went on to audition some more floor standing speaker options. As that isn’t specifically about digital or streaming, maybe put that into a separate report, elsewhere.

Nice distractions
An itch that needed a scratch was to explore and understand what Innous Pulse streaming transport has to offer.

Now that BS has this item available on demo’, we substituted the Pulse into the mix. Swapping out Naim streamer for the Pulse → nDAC + 555PS DR.


Image : Innous Pulse streamer, also available in black

Which seems like a reasonable comparison, in terms of comparable price point and functionality. More importantly, been keen to examine this product for a while.

Straight away, it was obviously doing a better job than the ND5 XS2. Much more control, better definition, more space and air. Even the guys commented, from outside the room.

Shouldn’t have been surprised really. After all, unlike the Naim steamer, it‘s a dedicated streaming transport. So, although similar cost as the Naim, maybe has more spent on less electronics inside. No internal DAC. Maybe better streaming platform and also it’s internal LPSU, etc. Innous are doing some interesting things across their line right now.

That itch has now been scratched. So, now thinking about what has been learned.

Also had the lovely treat of a first listen to the new Rega Naia, which was memorable. Brief comment on this experience is elsewhere.

Test tracks
It’s always about the music and these were the test tracks used through out the day.
In no particular order :

David Sylvian, from “Secrets of the Beehive” (1987).

  • Orpheus
  • When Poets Dreamed of Angels

David Sylvian, from “Dead Bees on a Cake” (1999).

  • I Surrender

Paul Buchanan, from “Quiet City” (2021).

  • Due North

The Blue Nile, from “Hats” (1989).

  • Tinsel Town in the Rain
  • Headlights on the Parade

The Bad Plus, from “These are the Vistas” (2003).

  • Everywhere You Turn

Go Go Penguins, from “Everything Is Going to Be Ok” (2023).

  • You’re Stronger Than You Think
  • Glimmerings
  • Saturnine

Portico Quartet, from “Next Stop” (2022) - Qobuz HiRes

  • Captured Time
  • Next Stop

Public Service Broadcasting, from “This New Noise (Live)” (2023) - Qobuz HiRes

  • A Cello Sings in Daventry

Madonna, from “Ray of Light” (1998).

  • Nothing Really Matters

Nick Mulvey, from “First Mind” (2014)

  • Fever to the Form

Some stalwarts, that have served well for decades. Also, more recent ones, that have been getting a lot of play at home right now.

With thanks
As always, my sincere thanks to Tony and Graham @BasicallySound for putting up with me :joy:

It is always a delight to visit and have fun with these two great guys. Moving things around and adding insightful comments on what we hear. Coffees, teas, biscuit and cake. Lots of music and laughs too.

The benefit of going on a journey, over time, with a single dealer is the trust that evolves between both parties.

Thanks guys.

Kind regards
R

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Pulse is great. Pulsar is better but obviously not suitable for the ndac unless you use a usb to coax converter of some sort

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Sure.
Thanks for pointing that out for everyone.
And… Following your own streaming journey with great interest :+1:
Thanks again.

One of the attractions, (to me or anyone else with a nDAC) is the option of digital out on SPDIF, with the Pulse. (It’s unusual in the current market. Most DAC’s allow for USB and not a lot else). That was the primary reason for wishing to look at that particular streamer.

Happy Sunday listening.
Just listening to Arlo Park’s latest, “My Soft Machine”, (2023).

Best wishes
R

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Whatever transport you end up with, your conclusion about nDAC+555PSDR is one we can’t argue with. Is is a stunning DAC, very musical.

We love ours more every day.

Interesting the effect the transport had on sound.

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I am really struggling with dacs at the moment! I have 3, Hugo tt2 ndac and XPs dr and Brinkmann nyquist. Technically, running hq player at dsd 256 through the pulsar into the nyquist is the best option but there is something about the ndac that keeps me coming back to it. Even bought a topping d10 to use as a usb to coax adapter for the pulsar but it does not work through the phoenix lite usb output (no power), it does work through the usb 3 outputs though.

1 st world problems and all that :wink:

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From reading, I’m very aware of the opinion that 555 PS (non DR) is preferred by some, to the latest 555 PS DR variant of this psu. Particularly, when used as an addition to nDAC.

Can anyone help and explain how this is different, maybe even the subtleties. Very interested to hear thoughts and opinion on this topic ?

As always, happy Sunday listening to everyone.
Best wishes
R

p.s. Currently listening to Laura Viers “Found Light” (2019).

and also just for the record, no system automation between Innous streamer and Naim amp, if that’s important to anyone (thought I wouldn’t care for that much, but I happen to rather like it).

@ratrat again a great insightful review, it is very helpful to follow your journey!

Just out of curiosity, If the XPS is 75% of the 555PS, would the XP5 XS be like 25%? Admittedly some time ago, I did hear a mild uplift using the budget psu.
That makes a 3-box digital slimline system though (ND5 XS2, nDAC, XP5 XS with DC1, Burndy) :anguished:

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Maybe as a consolation, Innous Sense UI more than makes up for the loss of that one feature :wink:

Happy Sunday listening…
Currently listening to The National, “Sleep Well Beast” (2017).

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Sure, definitely aware for the option for XP5 XS. Which Naim originally conceived exactly as you imagine in your use case. Never had the opportunity to see or use one.

So, can only really comment on what I’ve read, over the years, from others here. No doubt to be found with a search with the right key words. Also, with the archive available from the old forum too.

Thoughts……
From memory, mixed reviews.
Many users saying it wasn’t worth it and being underwhelming, etc. Others, (to my memory fewer positive observations compared) saying it worked for them.

Oh dear, starting to sound like @frenchrooster with encyclopaedic memories for forum history and individual user details.
That’s a compliment. Well done to you sir @frenchrooster

In the spirit of being objective, don’t take it from me, maybe do those searches.
Hope that helps.

For me, such anecdotal things and lots of other evidence along the way, my mind is already made up for XPS or maybe stretching for 555 PS. (Note: Hoped for NC option, with NPX300, but that was ruled out early on, in discussion with the “main man” ).

It’s addictive isn’t it. Taking one step. Discovering so much more in your music. Wanting to go further and investigating possible next steps, small or large…

BW
R

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Yes there are some write-ups about that. I do think that when moving up the ladder to a higher level more things come into play that weren’t that essential before. What would Powerlines and Hilines bring, the difference Fraim(lite) can make, network vs wifi, and many more aspects.
To be honest that is out of my league, I am happy/relieved to have moved everything up to this level at the far outer ends of my budget, and yet everything seems to remain balanced. Just meant as a plead for others to keep the holistic system approach of all aspects, not the boxes only.
As next steps I should probably first find 4 levels of Fraimlite, one Highline, three Powerlines and the DC1 - adding up to more money than a black box upgrade - before contemplating any further changes, so I’m stepping off the upgrade train here.
Note: the biggest improvement to any of my turntables was a record cleaning machine to give you an example, and it wasn’t cheap and also a lot of work! Now buying a new one first.

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@daddycool

Reflections…
FWIW, lived for years with the nDAC partnering our Naim CDP. Which is the very good CD5 XS, used as transport. That’s how the nDAC originally came into our house. Actually, the nDAC offers a more significant uplift for the CD 5XS as transport, than with more recent design ND5 XS2.

That said, I would suggest ND5 XS2 → nDAC is enough for anybody. It’s a brilliant streaming solution by itself.
For me, It’s only now, getting into streaming, I’m alive to other new and better options, with the nDAC.

We all come from different places, different experiences.

Ultimately, just trying to get everything in the house up to a certain reference point. (Our experiences, our ears, etc)
Over the years, the best sources in our house have always been vinyl.
Currently, would probably say the LP12 is best from the two we have.

Having followed (and worked with) the technology over say 20 odd years. Finally felt streaming has matured to the point it becomes a reasonable alternative. The various streaming platforms and wider ecosystem, being part of that. Hence only recently jumping in and spending decent money on streaming.

Just to share one idea with you…
Think we are nearly there. Just maybe one more step, to get to parity.
Taking my time. Enjoying the journey. After all, its a hobby.
Yes. It is addictive too.

If I might offer thoughts on any process of change and ongoing improvements…
Take your time. Enjoy lots of music. Take it all in along the way. Let time go by and just allow the more sophisticated understandings to naturally develop.

Sincerely hope this last philosophical idea is useful, to the process.

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I demoed the nd5 vs pulse into TT2 and preferred the pulse. It is more airy and seems more detailed. Very much personal preference though, I would put them on the same level. Could be that the Naim streamer pairs better with the ndac, I would need to demo to be sure.

Edit: I see you already demos the 2 into ndac and came to the same conclusion

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Thank you for that @ratrat on this rainy Sunday afternoon.

Actually I find the LP12 upgrades the easy part, there are a few different ways to get there. Got the wall shelf right first try. Then it’s just a matter of spending more money with your dealer until you feel you’ve reached your end point, not much guess work but some experimenting helps.

Indeed, the nDAC on the ND5 XS2 was necessary to bring digital close(r) to the LP12 level here, and that’s not even a very exotic spec. Thank you for pointing me there, now happy.

So true, time to now enjoy things into the new year and having great music over Christmas!

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Sure. We chatted about that some time back.
Realised you had moved from ZENmini to Pulse.
I’ve only recently had opportunity to see and hear a Pulse. Actually, I was impressed.

So, I’m thinking about that.

You’ve obviously made another step to Pulsar. Which might be a step too far, in this house. I’m really trying hard to resist faff and fiddle with USB connections not working with our nDAC. The alternative is to bite the bullet and start again with another DAC, likely from the Chord collection. Start point for exploring what Chord do, probably being the Hugo TT2.

What persuaded you to move from Pulse to Pulsar?

KR
R

p.s. as I type this, listening to Go Go Penguins “Everything Is Going to Be Ok” (2023), on vinyl, playing on our LP12 and thinking does all this streaming stuff really matter when vinyl sounds this good :blush:

Mainly the recent price increase. I was looking at the phoenix net and my dealer mentioned the price increases so I tacked on the pulsar as well. At the time I was leaning toward using the nyquist with it. Curiosity got the better of me so I am working on getting the ndac hooked up. Bought a topping D10 which works with the usb 3 boards but not the phoenix lite output.

If I were you and you are happy with the ndac I would stick with the pulse.

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For future reference, found these threads on the same topic …

Happy Sunday listening…
Currently listening to latest from Peter Gabriel “ i/ o “ , (2023)
Streaming from Qobuz, via Roon, in 24 bit / 96 kHz format. Very nice :grin:

KR
R

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Thankyou @ratrat; I have enjoyed thoroughly the thread you have here!

Like a few readers I may have followed links from other community pages (Investigating cables as an example) .

Cheers for putting some experiential journey into the pages and qualifying well with great parallels and ‘checks’ throughout. (Yes this requires WORK, but it doesn’t feel that way when we are chasing ‘better sound’ / ‘on the journey’)

Thankyou.

I wasn’t going to comment (even though it has taken me three days of off again / on again reading to read this post from start to finish); but then I feel baited by your last line and the random setup of the universe playing with/through my mind regarding ‘topic’. Why am I mused to write:?

Peter Gabriel I/O, having been a play through streaming platforms for me this last week, and for my friend (who holds a ‘reference system’ that I get to enjoy too).
Both of us wanting to own it (Peter Gabriels new album), and both using digital streaming until we lock down our digital discs (I am booked to return to my mates place on Thursday when we have ‘silver’ discs to spin)…

So (no pun intended?), (“So” is our benchmark ‘Gabriel’ to “VS” against!!), I have had the joy of ‘hi res’ through inferior transports.
I know this as, my ‘go to’ is a Fiio M11+, highly tweaked (turning off all sorts of Android sensors etc to keep it ‘pure’, and Apple Music, but once started: ‘offline’ (no wifi/no bluetooth etc), and I have found, previously, that running through a Digital Recorder the I/O (pun certainly intended) gives the FiiO M11+ a reclocking and that has allowd Apple Music via the Fiio Digital Audio Player to sound near equal/‘equal’ to twenty five year old ‘mid tier’ CD players [i]as a ‘transport’[i].
Sure my ears are ‘a little picky’ (and I have owned some incredible top of the tree transports), so I found it super interesting, by random ‘luck’ to go around to my mates place the same fortnight he has added a streaming device to his setup (and for “I/O” to be the fourth and final ‘stream’ we played).

He had me check his screen, and it was 3000kB (or 3000 ‘somethings’) and certainly saying it was a 24/96 feed.
I have ZERO doubt a CD version (lowly 16bit 44khz using 150KB per second) will FLOG the rendition of sound that I heard at his house yesterday.
What I couldn’t believe was how far back from my version of the same album playing yesterdays playback was!

I had to ask a quick few questions like ‘what power supply’, what connection method to your data source/DAC etc?..

Amazingly I missed so many of the ‘callback’ beats and rhythms found on the album.
(that match up with earlier Gabriel’ works and really ‘up the power of the songs found herein’)
The playback lacked stage depth (massively),… although it still had ‘width’ it was a lower key playback experience overtly.
To many pundits of ‘digital is digital’ I couldn’t believe how ‘in my face’ this ‘downgrade’ was, to me, vs ‘lowly Apple music’ (not reclocked)…

If we hadn’t spun it ‘last’ I would have accused his’ tubes having been not warmed up or someother reason for the smaller soundfield and ‘overly smooth’ rendition.
This disc, as I had heard the day before in my own den setup, smashed my back wall and sidewalls and was studio mastery… every out of phase ‘flick’ and controlled positioning of audio point sources- it sounded like something that needed a 5.1/‘surround’ system to achieve (whilst being decidedly a two channel affair).

Would I suggest that streaming boxes can make a big difference on the resulting sound?
In theory, ‘yes’.
In practice; “YES!

Had I not have experienced the playback yesterday I would simply go on believing that my M11+ rendition is ‘average’.
No I KNOW it is ‘far from average’; and certainly something that many people are not fortunate enough to experience.

Whilst I do look forward to spinning the same (sans ‘hi res’) from a silver disc; it was very eye opening to see first hand the subject of much of this thread play out right before me.

Having played familiar recordings prior to that (Fleetwood Mac and even Florence (and the Machine) Unplugged, amid ‘others’), whilst I was denigrating his (new) source vs his ‘very capable’ dedicated CD transport, we did experience a huge variety in soundfield size across each recording he played back.
There was still a ‘good quality’ transport at the heart of his rig (/the ladder DAC was very capable of being tolerant to jitter that Delta/Sigma designs would baulk at), but the stream version of the discs he was playing just didn’t compare in the slightest to the digital versions of ‘the same’.
It got to the point where I was offering to stand up and do the disc swaps for him so we could listen to the ‘silver’ (/or in some instances ‘gold’) spun through his ‘good’ transport (a dedicated CD transport with no ‘analogue’ output)…

The FiiO M11+, configured well, was easily 3x the quality (a few tiers higher performance) than my friends newly installed ‘streamer’.
Like recent thread posts here have identified… having the rest of the system sorted first means that seeing the full extend of the changeup that can be made to ‘streamers’ is ‘a thing’.

I believe my friend will be trying out some of the info I offered with regards to changing power supply etc…
The journey is joyus, and -
‘everyday is a school day’
(theory of digital would implore me to believe that his ‘streaming box’ should have been an equal experience to ‘my streaming box’)(‘No!’)

Dammit… why is everything so ‘experiential’.
Can’t we all just read spec sheets and know what to expect?
smiles with’

(Cheers, too)

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If you like I/O by Peter Gabriel, please try “New Blood” also by PG.

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Just posting a series of thoughts - first published elsewhere in the forum - but seem relevant to this thread and this journey…

Repeating here, for reference, in this journey too.

Happy Listening
R

p.s. currently listening to The National : “Laugh Track”, (2023). It’s being played a lot, in our house, these past few weeks since it was released.