Is it worth changing a NAP 250 DR to the new 250?

Hi-Fi Corner
21

Hi Mitch, (and to respond to @Lucifer 's comment above about amp power & quality), this is where maths and power stats (speaker and amp) need to be treated with great caution.

It is true that Fact12s benefit from plentiful power (as @Dunc alludes) in order to control them, this being the most important aspect. In the Naim line-up, there’s often a mis-understanding that you simply get more power handling – you do, but you also get much better quality amps (although the current NC350 v NAP500DR question hangs) with, importantly, the enhanced power being able to swing the transients far more easily.

Yes, something like a SN2/3 will power the Facts OK, but say a 500 will do a much better job and you will instantly hear this = more detail, tighter bass, more punch. Of course, this is where system balance and budget plays.

I agree that stats are the right starting place to research speaker & amp matching, especially with some brands, as the manu’s data doesn’t always portray ‘real life’ needs.

Put another way, IMHO you’re always better to over-amp a speaker/get the best amp you can.

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22

Many thanks everyone for the advice.
Listening will always be the best way of course but this forum is always a good starting point.
For background, I did originally have fact 8 for many years and these were with the 252/250dr combo fir a while, but a year or so ago I was offered a really great trade in deal on the 12s (signature) and they sounded so much better in my system, it was a no brainer. So, if they are a bit mismatched, that’s why.
Thanks again. I’ll give it some thought and maybe get a demo unit in.

23

NAP 250 DR aside, I’ve found the New Classic NAP 250 is also superior to the NAP 300 DR. New Classic NAP 250 offers superior punch, speed, dynamics, bass grip, soundstage height, soundstage width, soundstage depth and ‘air’.

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24

On my system, the 300 dr sounded fuller and weighter vs the NC 250. The bass was a bit bigger and fuller too. The NC 250 has not bigger soundstage.
Maybe the NC 250 has a bit more punch and speed. During the last 2 years, I had the 300 dr, 250 dr, and NC 250.
The 300 dr gave a bit too much energy on my speakers and room. As the NC 250 is leaner, it suits more my room interaction.

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25

Wow, good job too or your have nothing to sell!

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26

Dear HL,

Thank you for your kind reply, and I do not wish this reply to be retaliatory.

I will place this link again for those who wish to read this review by the “HIFI CRITIC” of the fact 12 speakers dated 2014, and I ask the OP to please take a look.

https://pmc-speakers.com/sites/default/files/attachments/HiFi%20Critic%20fact.12%20Review_0.pdf

Their test evaluation used the following equipment: the NAIT SN2 was the amplifier used then and compared to the Audio Research VSi75 valve amplifier.

The System
System: D’Agostino Momentum Stereo, Naim NAP300, Audio Research VSi75; Naim Supernait 2, Audio Research Reference 5 SE, Townshend Allegri and Audio Music control units; Naim UnitiServe network server and S/PDIF source, Naim NDS/555PS(DR) streamer/DAC digital source; Linn LP12/Naim ARO/Koetsu Urushi Vermilion, Naim Superline/Supercap DR vinyl source; Wilson Audio Sophia 3, Quad ESL63, BBCLS3/5a speakers; Finite Elemente Pagode Reference racks; Cardas Golden Reference, Transparent XLmm2, Naim NACA5, Franco Serblin Yter cables

You will see in their test review that the amplifier in use was the SN2.

A quote from the article:

" While it might appear to be a price mismatch, the Naim Supernait 2 was an excellent partner.
It went plenty loud, with a crisp, articulate and detailed sound, kicking fine timing out of this
line-loaded loudspeaker. Conversely, the Audio Research VSi75 sounded softer and more laid back,

and while it certainly sounded delicately detailed and subtly expressive, it could not play as loudly. Consistently, and in all test combinations, these speakers created the sense of an open and natural acoustic in the listening room."

The SN2 may be a starting point; anything over this is at the listener’s discretion.

I only wish to save the original poster his hard-earned money, and there is no requirement to upgrade as his system is excellent.

Again, I do not wish for this reply to be retaliatory.

It is possibly my metrology background mindset at play.

Metrology is not a typo:

What is the definition of metrology?

Metrology is “the science of measurement, embracing both experimental and theoretical determinations at any level of uncertainty in any field of science and technology,” as defined by the International Bureau of Weights and Measures (BIPM, 2004).

Possibly, again, I am used to living on measurements’s razor edge.

Warm regards,

Mitch in Oz.

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27

Respectfully, this isn’t the aspect in focus, which is would the FACT12s/the OP’s system benefit from more power amp-wise (and more quality) (?), to which the answer is an unqualified ‘yes’ – and this applies to nearly all 'speakers, ergo the underlying question about ‘upgrading’ to a NC250 or a NAP300DR.

Of course, system balance and budget are prime considerations – and using an SN3 (costs UK ~£4k) to power the FACT12’s (now >£14k - if not more for Signature version) wouldn’t normally be regarded as ‘balanced’.

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Dear HL,

If you have read the linked information, the reviewer had the opportunity to use a NAP300, though he chose an SN2 and an Audio Research VSi75, with excellent results. I can not argue about more quality as these systems are out of the price range of my bank account, and I would happily agree with the latter. However, he did give all praise for the SN2 audio quality and benefits.

I think the reviewer has made his claims as to what is necessary. Do you require an 8-litre V8 to drive to the corner shops to purchase milk? Yes, you can do it. Though a Mitsubishi ASX may be all you require, or in this case, maybe an Audi.

It highlights how good the SN2 in this example is and now the SN3 on today’s market.

OP, stay with what you have kick back on a Friday night with some vintage mouthwash with the money saved and be proud of what you have. Please remember to swallow, and gargling is optional :grinning:.

I think, and in my educated opinion, people need to remove the idea bigger, which is better, and I do not think so in this case unless the OP changes his speakers. Maths is maths, and physics is physics.

By all means, spend your money as you wish, as it is your money. His 250 DR is rated 80 watts into an 8-ohm load with the ability to swing low (2ohms) for higher currents for lower impedance loads. Box ticked. The SN2/SN3 is good for 4-ohm loads, and the OP’s speakers are unattainable to go so low, as stated in the review and impedance curves. The review points out it is an unbalanced price match, though states the SN2 exceeds in all possibilities.

Has anybody read the review? You can not argue against the facts, measurements and the math.

I hesitate to say this. Though maybe this is one of the reasons NAIM dropped the OC for the NC. Though kept the XS3 and SN3.

The OP does not wish to change boxes unnecessarily, and I think I have saved him from doing so.

You may have a dam full of electrons behind you (power supply current ability), though for a given voltage the load will and only will take so many electrons. Ohms Law. I do not wish to go into complex impedances at this stage.

Last and possibly first. Enjoy your system, enjoy your music and enjoy good camaraderie.

Warm regards,

Mitch in Oz.

29

Hi Mr. Roster… how the New EAR sounding?

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30

@Diver99 The NC250 has more power into both 8 and 4 ohms and a higher Damping Factor. I think the upgrade to the NC250 would be a worthwhile improvement, especially if you don’t want more or bigger boxes.

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31

My view.

Forget ‘damping factors’ marketing speak and specification sheets. Do a demo, or at the very least listen to the opinions of those who have actually heard the options, especially if they have experience of your speakers. Doesn’t apply to all opinions on this thread.

New isn’t always better. It tends not to be better value that is for sure!

Bruce

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32

Bruce has just posted similar to my own thinking, reading this thread, so I won’t simply repeat the same.
My further thought would be, by all means try NC250; however having heard and owning both, I would suggest an alternate option. Replace 252/SC and NAP250 DR, with NAC332 + NAP350s; three boxes out, three in.
At a recent Naim demo, see my thread from late last year, PMC Fact12s were used and the last system, albeit with NPX, was 332 + 350 really made the PMC show the ability of the NC3**.
PMC is not a speaker I really know, so my suggestion would be, hear the full 3 series rather than just upgrade NAP. If you prefer for your own reason, to only upgrade one box, best perhaps to enjoy the system you have on vfm basis, ymmv.

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I have to wait. It’s made on order only. Mid February probably will be here.

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34

Well Bruce… Damping Factor is what controls the woofers movement and keeps the bass fast and tight. And power output in 8 and more so 4 ohm tells us if the amplifier is high current… Ideally we want to see power output doubling from 8ohms to 4ohms… the NC250 does 100wpc into 8 and 190 into 4ohms. Much stouter than the 250DR… But WTF I could be wrong.

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in my case not at all worth it to upgrade to new 250… since my 250 DR has complete control over my Dynaudio speakers… but preamp upgrade interests me to some degree… Chord will have a new Mscaler out soon, that is what I am really interested in… source upgrades much more than preamp or power amp upgrades… and I need a much better turntable…

@Richard.Dane compared to where I was 15 years ago with Naim, you can now see my thinking has changed a lot, not so much interested in preamp, amp or speaker upgrades that much in the context of a limited budget as the biggest upgrade for me in terms of return on cash spent now are source upgrades.

But if buying new of course I would get the new 250 even over a pre loved 250DR and I would pay extra for it.

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36

I think it’s a mistake to set too much store by numerical specs when building a system (and I too have a background in mathematical physics). The power packs in my active ATCs are effectively at least 250 wpc, whereas several folk use the passive version of the same speakers with a SN2 or 3 and What HiFi? even commented favourably on their pairing with a 25 wpc Nait 50. So I rather expected the actives to be overkill for my not-very-large lounge. Instead, the enhanced dynamic range renders piano with an extra degree of realism and gives extra transparency to orchestral climaxes to take just two examples. My conclusion: there ain’t no substitute for listening at home, at least where that’s possible.

Roger

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37

Dear Peak Man,

This a luxury not available in Australia. One must take their own speakers into the studio rooms of the Reseller, which I have done, or make an educated decision based on someone living many hours drive away in 100 klm zones, country highways. In my case, maths.

You made a good point. However, does it solve the OP’s box acquisition or minimisation?

Warm regards,

Mitch.

38

Honestly I’m surprised people are not snapping up the 500/DRs right now. People what are you waiting for?! Your system will transform into something else altogether. “ DO IT, DO IT DO IT” (chanting) you will thank me later

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39

Good point on the 500, cheaper than a pair of 350s when used. Not so elegant in the room though which does have a bearing.

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I always thought the 500 was the ugly duckling in the range… not anymore. In the flesh, it looks really cool. I display it proudly on the top shelf

IMG_8026
IMG_80264030×2411 1.52 MB

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