Ah, not really how I see it. if I’d persisted with the TT2 in DAC mode then the TT2 pre was redundant with the 202. Not really any different moving to an integrated and having it in DAC mode.
On the other hand my targeted integrated has been reviewed several times with a pre and shines so it could go either way.
Not something I’m going to worry about. Main gain for me will be the loss of 4 boxes to be replaced by 1 and despite that a step up in sound quality.
If you have already chosen an integrated amp, fair enough. To me it seems wasteful and not cost effective to buy a box that includes a preamp you don’t need, but each to his own.
I happily used Hugo direct into power amp, at that time Musical Fidelity P270. To me, better than using a preamp as less electronics involved. (i moved on to Dave in the same way). Assuming you have no analogue sources, there is no theoretical reason for needing a preamp with such DACs, and certainly for me there was no “step down” at all - quite the opposite.
With Naim there are, perhaps, two considerations:
Firstly, from all I have gleaned on this forum over several years it appears to me that the NAC is the component most responsible for creating the fabled “Naim sound”, particularly with earlier gear (the characteristic sound possibly reducing over time as aspects other than timing have been improved). Omitting the Naim pre may take away something you desire.
Secondly, it is said that the Naim pre and power amps are designed to be used together, and that neither performs its best without the other. That of course is not a surprising claim when made by the manufacturer. The reality, electronically speaking, is that if the signal source to the power amp meets whatever are the latter’s demands, essentially output impedance, source current capability, and high frequency limiting, there should be no compatibility issues - and my understanding of the Chord products I have used is that they are eminently capable of meeting such requirements.
However, other than cabling it is easy to try, though unfortunately Naim products don’t make it as easy as do most manufacturers.
Yes that’s the point we are making, your current system has a redundant pre capacity, if you want to replicate that it’s fine.
Given the efficiency of his speakers, he could also ditch the amp. I ran my TT2 as an amp, driving Dynaudio excite 12’s directly. Rob Watts drives B&W speakers directly off his TT2.
Source>TT2>speakers.,simple, and would sound miles better than with another Pre and amp in the chain. But, what do I know, I only ran like this for over 6 months.
I agree with you, the TT2 has preamp functionality in the sense that is has a volume control, one which works in the digital domain, dropping less significant bits, not the most elegant approach when SQ is the main concern. Being able to manipulate volume digitally is more of a convenience, it doesn’t make it a preamp in my view, the main function it was designed for is still being a DAC.
I stand corrected, I misread the initial post and thought the OP had
a 250 instead.
A personal opinion but I’ve found the new products, especially sources, unengaging when it comes to what I have perceived to be the Naim sound. My amps were fine within the context of a CDX2/XPS2 but after much faffing about (see the fabled End Of My Tether thread) where it became apparent there was no fault with the CDP I opted for a much more relaxed but equally fast sound with the Innuos/Chord combination. The amps fall well below what combo is capable of so for me, taking away the pre seems likely to give me nothing worse than what I have and possibly rather more.
This is something I researched as end game but Chord don’t recommend it; one or two have had issues and ultimately I’ve been unable to find anyone who stuck with it.
I think the points re: redundancy are well made but downsizing and sound quality are my focus. I’m sure most of us hsve amps or even sources with redundant inputs; unused headphone outs; unused phono stages etc.
If I do ditch the 202 for cash etc. as an interim step I’ve yet to decide whether to use the TT2 in pre or DAC mode. My assumption is that once I have the right cable I can experiment and see which I prefer.
If you have a Naim power amp you may well want to use it with its matching Naim analogue preamp for optimum performance. It’s an inherent part of Naim’s designs to use this approach, and to keep volume controls analogue. Their basic digital volume controls in the separate streamers are disabled by default and not intended to provide optimal performance.
Other brands use an entirely different approach. The Chord DACs are an example of this, and the included digital preamps do not ‘drop bits’ to sacrifice sound quality. In fact people generally enabled the volume control in their Chord DACs when using them into a Naim preamp by choice, using it at reduced volume, finding that it sounded better that way.
The Chord TT2/Ttoby or Dave/Étude are very much designed to work this way, and I can assure you that it is not a compromise, just a different design approach. As for it being ‘not the most elegant approach’, the volume control it a great deal more elegant than the Alps pot that Naim preamps use.
Forgive me if I have completely missed the point of your post.
What is preventing you of disposing of all the boxes you no longer need/want and getting a Supernait 3 or which ever integrated floats your boat?
I have three amps to audition. I’m very focused on one but have an open mind as to what might work best. A Supernait of any variety is not one of them because there’s not an appreciably significant gap between them and a 202/200/HCDR and NAPSC whereas each of the integrateds should produce a significant uplift. Also I’ve a significant impedance mismatch between the current amplification and my speakers which would not be resolved by a Supernait. None of my proposed products are nearby so auditioning will involve putting 90% down each time in order to get a very focused home audition.
Disposing of all the boxes to get a SN offers no gain really. Disposing of some boxes instantly reduces us to 1 stack of boxes and provides an opportunity to compare TT2 into 200 against 3 integrateds. I’ve no doubt the latter will be better but it at least adds some interest. Additionally I don’t want to get rid of everything and go the TT2 route into speakers because I’ve never met anyone who stuck with that; Chord don’t recommend it and I don’t fancy going all in only to find I hate all the music I hear from next month through to October when I will be gifted.
The plot is that the integrated will be a gift for a big birthday later in the year.
I was keen to cut out the middle man. So I ran a TT2 into my 250DR, and compared this to my SN2 cum Hugo 2. Unfortunately I preferred the latter, and I added the black boxes I wished to avoid: Hicap DR first, and then a 282…
What do you mean by impedance mismatch in this case? Related, someone said your speakers are very efficient, what is in what sensitivity are they?
As a general rule I’ve always avoided mixing preamps and amps from different manufacturers simply because they were not voiced together, but I reckon there is a long way from being “voiced together” to “inherent part of the design”. As it was said before, as long as there is not an electrical mismatch (in the form of impedance, voltage or frecuency roll off, etc), there isn’t any compatibility issues and it comes down to preference.
As far as I know what they do is to upconvert to 32 bit to lessen the impact of loosing bits, which is common practice. If there is a fundamentally better way of digital attenuation they would have raved about it, or perhaps I’m just not aware, can you elaborate on how they do it?
Speakers are 16 ohm. Nothing terrible happens but it’s nowhere near as great as it could be and needs amplification with the option of 8 ohm to bring out the very best in them.
16 ohm on an amp rated for 8 ohm just means they will be 3dB quieter for the same amp power, and the amp will have. If your speakers are high sensitivity as someone suggested, it is possibly a moot point. The sound quality of the amp would not be affected, at least with solid state amps - valve amps may be different.
I’m unclear what you mean by that - 99%+ amps are specified for nominally 8 ohm load. Unless you meant 16? -see above. I’m unaware of any amps designed specifically for 16 ohm use - though at one time I think that was common for valve amps.
I have just sold my 202/hicap-dr/napsc/200 and found the market flooded with inexpensive 202’s with real interest only in the hicap-dr… yet IMO the 202 with upgraded ps performs wonderfully so for the cash you may or may not manage to get for your 202 kit perhaps hang on until you are certain the integrated amp gives you what you want?
I don’t know why exactly, but generally high efficiency speakers, like Zu audio of Mike here, are generally sounding much better powered by valve amps or Class AB solid states.
In that case, I would try Chord TT direct into Pass Labs for example, as Mike doesn’t use a turntable.
I sometimes use the Hugo 2 into NAP 200 DR and it sounds very, very nice.
I use a cable Mogami 2965, RCA to DIN 4 pin, as in the picture below. The experiment you are planning to do is a good way forward to new and higher things, in my opinion.
Sounds complicated and involved.
I wish you all the best in getting what pleases you.
You are made of sterner stuff then I.
