Naim nDac: local files vs CD transport

[Rya]

Hello All,

I moved away from a dedicated CD player 6-7 years ago in favour of streaming local files and through trial and error, ending up with an nDac(555ps) + Limetree Bridge II (with a LPSU) and using both Qobuz and a local NAS for my ripped CDs.

I typically find local files to sound better than Qobuz - providing the mastering of the release is identical - so I was hoping that those who use a CD transport with their nDac would be willing to comment on whether the same CD will/can sound different when using a CDT vs a locally streamed ripped copy.

Thanks!

[feeling_zen]

Any transport could sound different including streaming.

Irrespective of the data source media, a number of variables exist such as clock born noise, ground plane noise common mode contaminant on the digital interconnect moving noise from one device to another impacting the analogue output stage of the nDAC.

Therefore, given two identical data streams, there are enough other significant non data factors at play to impact the performance. So it really comes down to whether a specific CD transport performs better or worse than your Limetree with the same data. Very open ended question.

[Rya]

The hope, really, was to learn if any users with the same streaming setup found an addition of a CDT worthwhile SQ-wise.

I have discovered when trying different streaming options that nDac is not immune to digital feed quality. Also when I first started on the streaming journey my CDX+XPS was more engaging than the nDac+XPS fed by a Raspberry pi with RuneAudio installed, unless the files were being played using the nDac’s USB port and a flash drive. The convenience of streaming ripped CDs won eventually despite some sonic tradeoffs but it took some experimenting (massive improvements were gained for instance by adding a high quality asynchronous USB to SPDIF converter to the RPi setup), to even out the SQ difference between USB port and SPDIF input. I can’t perceive much difference (if any) with the Limetree Bridge vs USB port now.

Saying that, my amp setup has changed since and, being more revealing now, I thought I was revisit the two options again, hence the post.

Thanks again.

[daddycool]

You actually touched many points in one post @Rya and I hope the below makes any sense:

Yes nDac is picky for the input signal. Myself and several other members have found that the ND5-XS2 or NDX2 via DC-1 into nDac (with or without PSU) is a very synergetic combination greater than the sum of its Naim parts.

Using the nDac USB port with a (vintage) flash drive and WAV files is quite an experience, scary lifelike voices, concert hall scale, but overall not the same balanced result as the above.

Asynchronous USB is wonderful, the Audiophillio converter was even built into Naim DAC-V1 and worked very good directly from a MacbookPro (or a USB streamer).

A tried and tested other USB input into the nDac via DC-1 in the BNC version has been the M2Tech HiFace2 USB to BNC converter.

This involves ripping a CD to a hires format, and I can hear/sense differences between AIFF & WAV vs. Apple Lossless & FLAC, so there’s also that (for most FLAC seems to do fine).

In summary at one point I concluded that (to my ears) any of the above combinations, in a suitable ripped format, are a good digital file alternative to CD via a comparable Naim CD player (CD5-XS or CDX2 with suitable PSU).

Perhaps more a direct answer - at one point @ratrat wrote that they originally acquired the nDac to succesfully upgrade a CD5-XS, and others have upgraded their CDX2.2 that way. So as with the streamers a synergetic combination of a Naim transport with DC-1 & nDac (with or without PSU). I more or less understood from the forum that other brands of transport (CD or streaming) form more successful pairings with other brands of DAC than with the nDac.

ps: (CDs ripped to) local files vs. streaming is a whole other dimension and discussion.

[Wilfried]

I hesitated to respond because I don’t use local streaming. I only have around 150 CDs from the past, and ripping them seemed too time-consuming to me. I use an Audiolab 6000 CDT drive in the nDac/XPS. It’s just an entry-level drive, but it has a good reputation here in the forum. Otherwise, I use ND5XS2 as a streaming transport for Qobuz and web radio (including Jazzgroove subscription). Yesterday, I listened to CDs again. My impression is that there is no longer a big difference between Qobuz and CD. I compared Jacintha’s album ‘Here’s to Ben’, for example, which is a very good recording on CD, but similarly good via Qobuz (high resolution). I think the network optimisation with the IFi power supply on the router, Cisco 3560, Silent Angel Bonn N8+Forester F1 power supply and high-end power cord, as well as good Ethernet cables, have paid off here. I benefited a lot from the numerous threads here in the forum. The individual recordings have a much greater impact. Many (older) CDs sound rather dull and flat in the bass. But even on Qobuz there are many unsatisfactory recordings, e.g. many older jazz albums. I have also considered whether I should start local streaming as well. In the forum, there are many voices that prefer local streaming to online streaming from a sound perspective. I could buy a Naim Uniti Serve, for example, which is quite inexpensive even second-hand. Then I would have to rip my CDs and also buy albums via Qobuz, which would mean an additional investment. As I mentioned, I have not had any bad experiences with online streaming and, if you are interested, I have a public playlist on Qobuz with tracks that sound great on my system (Sound Demo Wilfried).

[Blacknote]

@Rya

I typically find local files to sound better than Qobuz - providing the mastering of the release is identical

I agree, I prefer local streaming too (with WAV files). Out of curiosity: have you also tried different UPnP servers? In my experience they can have different sound signatures, I personally prefer JRiver.

I can’t comment on CDT, I never tried any.

[ratrat]

What a fascinating question in the original post (OP).

Gave me an excuse for a 30min coffee break - from work, home office - and a quick experiment.
Sincere thanks to my dear friend @daddycool for higlighting. ( FYI @daddycool - just the sort of question i love to tinker with - maybe you understood that ).

Okay, so some thoughts to share…

We have CD5 XS set up as transport - DC1 - nDAC + 555PS ( as digital source 2, on nDAC )
Also, ND5 XS2 set up as transport - DC1 - nDAC + 555PS ( digital source 1, on nDAC )

Method
Just played three pieces of music, first 60-90 seconds of each track.
First on CD using CD5 XS, as transport only.
Then, second, using local file - from Innous ZENmini mkiii S + LPSU - using it’s SSD archive, (which is ripped copy from the original CD that we also have and use).
Just to note, using Roon as UI, ( and ZM is running as Roon Core ).
Therefore, play back is via network to ND5 XS2, again as transport only.

For other system details, see bio’.

Test tracks
Nora Jones : Come Away With Me ( 2002 ) - Come Away With me
Hania Rani : Ghosts ( 2023 ) - Komeda
David Sylvian : Secrets Of The Beehive (1987) - Orpheus

All tracks very familiar, well known to me.
Played first 60-90 seconds of each track, CD v local file, compared.
In each case, went back and fourth - five times - and made some notes.

Results
My first impression, from playing CD first then listening to local file, was no discernable difference noted.
After repeated playing, started to discern some slight differences. Having noted local file streaming presentented more “tizz” or sparkle - at the high end - to the music. Also, picked up streaming local file had a little more “space” or “air” in the sound stage.

However, I would caution - in my opinion - these small differences are so small as to be not worth spending too much time considering. I had to really strain and concentrate to detect these marginal differences and it is still open to opinion which one might be preferred here.

My personal opinion - this result did not surprise me - as the two machines Naim CDP and Naim Streamer are pretty well balanced as sources. Also, all things being equal, using these two as transport only, the DAC is doing the real work here, for both sources. So, my instinct was this would come out very similar or equal. Any obvious differences heard being due to the source equipment or maybe the nature of media format.

As always, a caveat, my system, my room, my ears. Others may hear differently.

Image notes : A room and system, recently set up for - mostly - listening to digital sources, for CD and streaming. Plus, occasionally working from home.

As an aside, did not compare to streaming from Qobuz platform.
Although, interestingly did look at the Qubox versions available - for these albums - which I found to be as follows.

Nora Jones : Come Away with Me - FLAC 192kHz / 24 bit
Hania Rani : Ghosts - FLAC 48kHz / 24 bit
David Sylvian : Secrets of the Beehive - FLAC 44.1kHz / 16 bit **
** Note : Remastered 2003 version, which is recorded differently, arguable better ?

By coincidence, in each of these three cases, ( just happen to already know, from previously playing and experimentation), streaming the Qobuz version is significantly better, But this is not always the case and depends on the album, original recording, version available, file resolution or format, etc, as others have observed.

Quick reply to this comment

@daddycool

at one point @ratrat wrote that they originally acquired the nDac to succesfully upgrade a CD5-XS

Yes, originally, our nDAC came into our house as a worthwhile “upgrade” for the CDP, to be used as transport with an external DAC.

Over the years - through experimentation - came to understand the nDAC offers a bigger “upgrade” for the CD5 XS CDP than for the ND5 XS2 streamer. Thoughts about this - maybe the internal DAC for the streamer ( in production from 2018 ) is a more successful implementation than the CDP ( in production from 2009 ). It’s all interesting.

Leave it there and resist getting into comments on the nuances and preferences for different media formats and the various ways to enjoy your music, all of which are good, because it is always about a love of music.

So there you go…
Hope that helps the discussion here

Happy listening
R

[daddycool]

@ratrat

mage notes : A room and system, recently set up for - mostly - listening to digital sources, for CD and streaming. Plus, occasionally working from home.

What a lovely room to listen (and work) !

[Blacknote]

@ratrat

Having noted local file streaming presentented more “tizz” or sparkle - at the high end - to the music. Also, picked up streaming local file had a little more “space” or “air” in the sound stage.

Same for me! At least when I made a comparison with Qobuz.

[Dugby]

Ahhh Jacintha - I have all her XRCDs streaming from my Naim Core into my ND5xs2/nDAC/PS555DR from where she’s my comforter after a hard day’s work

[Richard.Dane]

I think the problem here is that with my Naim DAC, having tried many different CD player transports over the years, I have found one or two were appreciably superior to the vast majority, with a few real duds too. So “CD transport” requires qualification.

What was also impressive was playing hi-res WAV files off a stick in the back of the DAC. Whether that is better than playing from my Core, I haven’t compared - sometimes life is too short!

[Wilfried]

Thanks for the tip. I also have a few XRCDs, but unfortunately none by Jacinta. However, the normal CD version of ‘Here’s to Ben’ sounds very good too. Enjoy!

[Wilfried]

Hi Richard, thanks for the tip. What are your favorites when it comes to CD transports (Meridian?)

[Rya]

Interesting, was not aware of that and have not compared them. The current one is Synology’s own NAS Media Server. Before, for years, I had a large disk drive plugged in directly into RaspberryPi.

[Rya]

Many thanks for taking the time to do this!

If the differences are that fleeting, there might be no point in chasing them to sacrifice both the convenience of streaming and the ability to explore different genres without limits. I only had Qobuz for a year and it lead to some amazing discoveries, including CD EP releases that are next to impossible to find on the used market. One of the things I enjoyed BTW was to type in a well known track and go through covers, Qobuz often includes some really obscure ones.

I should be able to audition audiolab 9000cdt in my setup fairly soon (it is the only way) and unless I am blown away in a CDT vs streamed files comparison, I will gladly stick to the latter.

in the nDac context, I remember @Richard.Dane mentioning Meridian 200 CDT, to second @Wilfried, what was the other one?

[Richard.Dane]

Yes, the Meridians were excellent.

Probably the most disappointing was a big Sony ES player. It looked wonderful and seemed beautifully engineered and finished in that way that Sony of the period got so right, but its sonic performance as a transport was very lacklustre - oddly “slow” sounding and unengaging.

[ratrat]

Hey @Rya

In 40+ years of enjoying music - live gigs and recordings - we have accumulated maybe 1200+ CD’s and 600+ vinyl records. We cherish them all, some of which have very positive memories. For us, music and memories go together. So the media stays and is used regularly.

But…

If I was starting again - now - I would just get the very best streaming platform and separate DAC that could be afforded and only stream.

That said, if you like the idea that it might be nice to spin the odd CD, the Audiolab 9000CDT - for frankly not much money - is a good option. The other options for pre-used I might recommend is a Meridian 500 CD Transport, or 506 (the 506.24 version) or 507.

Good luck with your own journey with music.
R

[Blacknote]

I tried the QNAP UPnP server and did not like it the slightest. There was a night and day difference with JRiver. In case you are curious, there’s a trial period with JRiver (the same with Audirvana, some prefer it). You should give it a go in case you are curious.

[Rya]

Thanks for the recommendation.

I should be able to install it on my PC for comparison at some point (the music files are duplicated) against Synology’s native software.

[Blacknote]

Welcome! Let me know your thoughts when you’ll try it.