I can’t believe this thread is still running … perhaps I should rename it “… five months on”
Some of the contributions are most disconcerting as they suggest (or merely indicate) that I have taken the wrong approach … more than once.
In looking to upgrade the 8yr old NDX I replaced it with the NDX2, output to nDAC / XPS-DR and then removed the nDAC to leave the NDX2 / XPS-DR pairing.
And yet, having been challenged 8+ yrs ago about adding the nDAC to the NDX (at that time: no XPS-DR) I’m now faced with comments that the nDAC/XPS-DR is a better upgrade to the NDX2 than pairing it with the XPS-DR.
Some contributions suggest I’d be better-off removing the XPS-DR to run the NDX2 bare. Perhaps times have changed … I was led to believe that Naim’s philosophy was based on the audio SQ was improved by removing the power supply from the source. I certainly found that with the lowly FlatCap 2x re: CD5x; and the HiCap improved the overall performance of the SuperNait. But perhaps this is clever marketing: how to get the customer to buy a second black box.
The issue is in my realm to solve … I could simply remove the XPS-DR for a few weeks and hear the difference. I dare say I could then sell it … and a Fraim shelf, too.
But, for present I’ll stick with the redundancy the XPS-DR generates … I do know the music I’m hearing, day after day, is far more realistic (it’s there … in my living room) than it’s ever been.
Of course, not everything is wonderful … none of the gripes I listed early in this thread has been resolved to my satisfaction. But then … it has been only three - four months.
Indeed it’s a nice thing about this forum… threads become camping grounds that support the discussions evolving. It’s a key difference between this and a regular and rather bland/sterile vendor’s support web / social media site and ‘knowledge base’ community.
After getting my chrome bumper amps serviced last year and setting up a minimal system at our house in france. I ask myself the same question. The room and the mains i have here are amazing which to me shows the upmost importance of sorting those things as well. They really lift the musical enjoyment to a higher level.
Couldn’t agree more… this ‘redundancy’ discussion you see on these threads is facile in my opinion, these elements support modularity and flexibility for you the consumer… that is a key part of the product…. (Not whether it’s ‘in circuit’ or not at a given time.)
So enjoy it for what is and what it gives you… you can always sell it later if your tastes change or develop… and then you might find all those ‘redundant’ elements become pretty essential.
I agree. Auralic’s Vega G2.1 DAC includes a streaming section, supporting streaming from the internet and a NAS. But they also make a pure streamer without DAC: Aries G2.1 and the two are often used together. Some users have pointed out the redundancy and suggested money could be saved by producing a version of the Vega without the streaming section. The reply from the head of the company is that they could do that, but it would not reduce the price at all, so not really worth doing.
If you purchase Naim products then you buy into their philosophy that passive head units with separate power supplies provide the best performance at particular price points. The fact that some head units (CDX2 of old and now the NDX2) come with power supplies just provides a lower point of entry price wise with the option to upgrade later which is great. I have never quite understood why the nDAC retained some use of its internal ps when a XPS or even 555 was added as it seems to go against the grain. The integrated amps are a different case where the upgrade path is not really intended to be the addition of power supplies but rather a move to pre/power combinations. Naim to their credit though provide plenty of value based partial solutions here as well - adding power amps and adding power supplies. You have to be sensible though. I do not think anyone would recommend a Supernait with a NAP300 and separate power supplies as being a place you should end up. Naim are rare in providing so many options that reduce the need to make gear redundant. It’s up to the purchaser to decide what they want and whether it represents value (to them).
No, because you can’t ‘DR’ the transport in a ND5 XS 2 with a far superior PSU (and turn it’s onboard one off) - that’s it’s achilles heel and a very, very significant one at that. In Naim world you generally get what you pay for, in a very honest way i might add, otherwise what’s the point in having any sort of hierarchy? Why do you think Naim have removed the PSU from their ND555 altogether? Oh and look how close the DAC is to it’s transport.
ND5XS2 with a superb external DAC (e.g. Chord), trumps an NDX2 with its external PSU (of whatever persuasion) because of the limitations of the internal DAC .
This argument could go round in circles for the rest of time, I suspect based on little more than ownership bias which tends to make conversations too adversarial in my view.
As it happens I chose the DAC upgrade rather than PSU upgrade route, but that was based largely on the fact that I could keep box count low without reducing sound quality. For anyone who is happy with a 2 box source a PSU upgrade is just as valid as a DAC upgrade. It’s good to have choices, and we shouldn’t denigrate others just because they have chosen a different route.
Something can be better but can give less pleasure. I recognise that Chord dacs give a clearer presentation with more details. On that point Chord dacs are better than Naim.
But is listening to music only a matter of the details we can pin point?
For me Naim dacs give a more cohesive rendering, are more centred on the why, not the what as Chord.
Then Naim dacs present also a more organic and propulsive sound.
So for these last characteristics, for me, Naim dacs are better.
This is what i like - twin 10,000 microfarad caps coming off a miles bigger transformer just for the transport side of things, oh then there’s the twin DR modules just for good extra measure! Source first and all that. Yummy!
Having added an XPSDR to a 272 and achieving a substantial uplift I can see that an XPSDR onto an NDX2 would likely greatly improve the DAC and analogue sections. The power feed from an XPSDR does as you say above have the 4 crucial improvements.
When it comes to the digital transport we’re surely into the realms of rapidly diminishing gains? If I were to use the ND5XS2 as a SPDIF digital transport into an nDAC/XPSDR would I really hear an increase in sound quality worth £8K moving to NDX2 and adding XPSDR!!!???
Using our nDAC with a Raspberry PI/digital HAT has been a real eye opener as the quality is fantastic, which has made us rethink spending silly amounts on a transport.
I completely agree with this comment. However, Since getting my NDX2, partnered with (temporarily) a nait 5si, I have realised that I got more enjoyment from my Atom + nap 200. I put this down to the 5si being the weak link. It is a very average amp and it’s taken me a while to realise it. It’s sounds great at face value but it has no magic factor. The Atom did.
For me, source first is definitely not turning out to be the most important thing. Without a decent amp your source is nothing.
Yup. That’s just for the digital card only (4x upgrades). I haven’t even began too look the DAC and analogue filtering stages that improves the rest of the player as well. This is where some here are missing the point - you can’t improve the transport side of the ND5 XS 2 - this is where it’s a dead duck as it were, it’s achilles heel. With NDX 2 you can even go again, with 555DR PSU.
Notice in this pic, the emphasis in the XPS DR has been mostly put into the transport side of things, look how much bigger the caps are. Once you put one of these supplies on a NDX 2 it leaves the ND5 XS 2 for dust because that player’s transport will always be what it is, in a noisy environment with it’s on-board ‘lesser’ supply. I will even go as far and say a ND5 XS 2 with nDAC/XPS DR/555 DR becomes a ‘mullet’ source player when compared with the higher end players. You pays your money and Naim know what they are doing.
That, I’m afraid to say, is complete rubbish. You are just speculating here as far as I can tell. Using a more expensive transport into the DAC (Naim or otherwise) may possibly bring some small gains, but when you’re looking as spending thousands on a Naim or comparable high end streamer you will be massively affected by the law of diminishing returns.
