I use the Zenith/PhoenixUSB/PhoenixNet into Chord DAVE/MScaler, I agree the Net does make a positive difference.
Yes, there’s no doubt that there’s an element of “waste” in the Statement when used with a Naim streamer, paying for USB output optimisation you won’t use, and indeed for Ethernet output optimisation you also won’t use if opting for the PhoenixNet.
In addition I can’t help feeling there’s a bit of higher margin premium product pricing in the Statement, too. Fortunately or unfortunately, though, it sounds fantastic.
I’ll go into some of the details of what it sounds like over the weekend.
At these prices I wonder if you should also be comparing other upgrades, e.g. 2nd PS on ND555, DR’ing the 552, NAP 300/500 or speakers?
It seems a heck of a lot to pay for a server to me so the benefits need to be significant as we know the upgrades above will be.
There was a time when I’d have argued that an expensive server for music was a waste of money, then I heard a zenith with a phoenix USB and gave up all thought of spending what would have been an as expensive streamer. If the statement is another level above this it’s with every penny. As soon as I can afford to I will be adding the phoenix net too
Indeed, and I would only go for a posh server/switch when I am forced to when my UnitiServe conks out. My US is 10 years old and has fallen over twice in the past.
It does seem worth going for a good ‘audiophile’ server, particularly if you have (or plan to have) a 500 series streaming system, so Melco and Innuos will be in the frame, come that fateful day.
If a pre loved NAP500DR comes up, and my US and etherREGEN are still going strong, and I can afford it, I would probably go for the NAP first. Same for speakers. I am only looking into Innuos servers/switches should my US expire sooner rather than later. ‘Pooters never seem to give you any warning before they take their last breath!
Absolutely with you there. But the effect of the Innuos gear on the ND555 with 2xPSUs shouldn’t be underestimated (which is of course precisely what I did, going on previous experience). So, once you have got the other stuff where you want to - and being mindful of “source first” often being a valid approach…
Thanks for a great, informative thread Michael, very much appreciated.
Best regards, BF
I purchased a zen mk3 when concerned my 8 yr old wind up qnap nas was near end of its life. The sq lift with innuos 2 on my 500 system (nds/552/500) is significant, detail, especially at lower frequencies. I’m using the ethernet plug in. With the nds in the shop for a screen replacement, now getting by with a $300 audioquest cobalt usb dac. (No phoenix net)
The system sounds superb, especially Qobuz hi-res via roon. All of this to say that you may wish to trial a bit further down the innuos range of product before jumping straight into statement like expenditure)
Well that was an interesting read, to which I thought I could add a few further insights. Firstly the difference between Statement and Zenith Mk III include:
- new linear power supply topology with 8 vs. 3 independent LPS rails, dual chassis separation of transformer + AC/DC rectification and DC regulation and higher capacity transformer with enhanced screening
- Optimized USB and Ethernet reclocking ports with 3ppb OCXO oscillators
- Enhanced EMI mitigation including 10mm machined Aluminium chassis
In terms of running-in, the Mundorf capacitors used by Innuos really do take a long time to fully stabilise and sound their absolute best. Then both the PhoenixNET and Statement need around 3 days to sound their best after being powered down.
All units respond to an improvement in their power cable. I have found that Synergistic Research UEF Blue HC 10 AWG cord brings really worthwhile improvements while preserving clarity and neutrality and further enhancing bass extension, definition and transient response
Chord Company makes a set of umbilical cables for the Statement that at ca £990 are far from cheap but again bring a substantial uplift primarily in detail retrieval, spacial performance and frequency extremes that I felt was worth the price.
Then to the question of adding PhoenixNET to the input of the Statement or Zenith MkIII. If your system is already highly resolving, then you’ll know that enhancing the quality of the remote data stream by removing noise and jitter and adding better quality cables has a positive affect on sound quality. If for example you place your router on a vibration optimised platform such as the £120 Atacama Evoque 60/40 base unit, you’ll hear an improvement in SQ. That means that the improvement made at the router ripples through the rest of the network chain in a ‘better-in better-out’ fashion. Like all other pieces of hi-fi, a better input signal (less noise, less ripple, less jitter) results in a better output. Given that many devices on your network resynthesises the data stream, if the incoming data stream is improved, then so is the out going stream. By placing a PhoenixNET in front of a Statement, the stream going into the Statement is improved, so consequently is the Statement’s outgoing stream. For me, the greatest affect of PN was additional naturalness, enhanced emotional response and the system’s ability to communicate the rhythmic interplay of the musicians and with that the deeper meaning of the music, from both performance and compositional aspects.
Finally, gains made by adding a PN at the input to the Statement or Zenith can also be made elsewhere on the network stream. By minimising vibration, removing power supply noise, ripple and impedance, increasing immunity to EMI and improving cable transmission and screening, the network can be optimised to bring sometimes jaw dropping improvements in SQ.
Thanks for the additional detail and explanation, am I correct in thinking that adding the PhoenixNet and PhoenixUSB to the Zenith would result in incorporating the optimised USB and Ethernet reclocking ports and reducing the gap with the Statement to one independent LPS rail ?
Of course I realise the Statement has other benefits, just trying to understand the differences in specifications.
“Chord Company makes a set of umbilical cables for the Statement that at ca £990 are far from cheap but again bring a substantial uplift primarily in detail retrieval, spacial performance and frequency extremes that I felt was worth the price.”
I’ve had a pair of umbilicals created using Mundorf S/G wire by SJ; uplifts sound VERY nicely
Yes, you are absolutely correct. The addition of both the Phoenix USB and NET would close the gap considerably, to the point that both (S or ZIII) would deliver more or less the same startlingly pure, massively spacious, highly dynamic and rhythmical musical performances, with the edge still going to the Statement, as you’d expect. And of course there’s Statement + PN MMMMmmmmmm!
One other thing to bear in mind is that the better the system becomes, the wider the gap between Roon and Innuos 2.x.x sound quality, to the point that using Roon becomes a major SQ sacrifice.
The reason that Innuos weren’t promoting SQ with 2.0 is because the difference between it and say iPeng 1.4.9 varies according to how optimized the network data stream. 1.4.9 is a ‘pull’ application, so its constantly polling to see if there’s any outstanding demands to service. With Roon, network traffic back and forth is constant. The whole Innuos design is about reducing EMI, which is why they chose a less powerful CPU, so network traffic and CPU interrupts should be minimised where possible, with corresponding positive impact on SQ. Innuos 2.0 is a ‘push’ application, so remains completely ‘silent’ until there is a command to execute. If you extend this same philosophy with the rest of your network, you can achieve some truly stunning results.
My network is based on wireless isolation (I could use optical here and maybe will when I get an FTTP service), using the following:
Tri-band router (TPLink Archer AC5400) with one 5GHz band dedicated solely to audio into a highly modified* TPLInk RE650 set up as a wi-fi to ethernet bridge, with polling and 2.4GHz switched off. I get about 250Mbps, transmission rate, so the GUI runs at speeds similar to a local interface and downloads of albums and metadata take fractions of a second. With music tracks loaded into RAM, there is virtually no network traffic during music replay, and the CPU is barely interrupted from its main task of music processing. With so little activity, heat generation is minimised and power supply loads are benign. I have applied the same design philosophy to rest of my network, which uses Sean Jacob’s DC4 regulated supplies throughout, thereby minimising harmonics where the noise from different power supplies interact. I use a Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Ref Ethernet loom with all shields star wired to a low impedance ground. All DC cables and internal PS cabling is Mundorf silver/gold with JSSG360 shielding on all external cables, providing very low impedance DC supplies to all network modules. All modules and power supplies are mounted on anti-vibration bases or racks.
- The RE650 network bridge is wall mounted on an anti-vibration platform that maintains antennae orientation. The integral wall plug and 5V SMPS are removed and replaced with a DC4 regulated LPS. Cabling as mentioned above.
Every step taken to improve the network resulted in enhanced sonics that I thought well worth the investment. Some, like the Mundorf silver/gold cabling gave improvements that honestly sounded like I’d substantially upgraded my speakers. Adding SJ DC4 regulation gave the music huge amounts of drive and vitality, with SOTA PRAT, that practically bounced me out of my listening chair, something you’d usually only achieve by major upgrading of an amp or adding additional power supplies. Above all, the improvements were all fundamental rather than cosmetic, which made the music far more believable and generated subconscious emotional responses, which ensures increased long term enjoyment and a compelling interest in listening to music
Thanks for another detailed and interesting response. I currently subscribe to Roon but since the launch of Innuos 2.0 I haven’t used it, I also found sound quality issues detracted from my experience of Roon. Your comment regarding Innuos less powerful CPU is spot on and always a source of conflict in running the Innuos as a Roon core.
I have recently been considering adding the Sean Jacobs DC4 to my Chord Dave, good to hear more positive feedback.
Yes, I bet they do and this is something I’m going to look into at some point, given the superb results I’ve had using the wire elsewhere in my system. The only downside of all these upgrades is the time Mundorf caps and cable take to run in. Literally months with the system powered up 24x7 and used 4-5 hours per day. If you are considering these upgrades it pays to consolidate them all into one move so run-in is all done in parallel, otherwise you’re talking many months of listening to a sub-optimal system.
Sean is real PSU (and cable) wizard as well as an all-round nice guy - great to deal with. There has unfortunately been a bereavement in the family, however, so he is not taking orders at present.
On the zenith 3 I can confirm isolation and power cable are a surprising improvement and especially the latter. The USB phoenix is a game changing device for me but I can’t say how much closer it brings the device to the statement
I’ve heard both, albeit in a dealer set up. I’d say Zenith plus Phoenix USB probably takes you 80% plus of the way to a Statement. It is frankly more than enough. I suspect the addition of the other Phoenix might take that to 85% plus.
I’d definitely recommend a good audition with your own DAC or Streamer. Some could reveal a greater Zenith-Statement difference than others. Both are very strong on instrumental texture which is, however, in my opinion not the greatest strength of the Chord DACs.
Hi Michael,
This thread is getting a bit long but I believe your loaner Zenith (3?) developed a fault and hence you were not able to compare the Zenith/PN to the Statement with and without a PN. Were you able to get a fix for the Zenith and do that comparison, or has that not been possible?
The demo Zenith got sent back to base and the idea was that it would then get sent back to me for the comparison, but in the meantime I decided to simply go with the Statement. I didn’t want to lose anything of what it offered.