Optimal SQ config for Innuos Zenith/Statement with ND555 and Roon (or not)

Well the way things stand at the moment prior to innuoOS developments re Ethernet you were spot on there :grinning:

1 Like

I would like to know and understand how LMS bridge works, because it enables to use the Nd555 in UPNP mode with the Innuos and use the Innuos Sense app.

I currently enable the Chord DAVE in UPnP mode, I find the sound quality better than Roon mode, I’ll leave it to others who understand the technicalities better to answer your question re the LMS bridge

2 Likes

I’m not sure about that. Currently it only allows you to use the Innuos server as a UPnP NAS controlled by the Naim app not Sense AFAIK

frenchrooster

I tried to find the discussion about it. I have read a member having the Nds , using as a player in UPNP mode, the Innuos as Nas, and using the Innuos Sense app.
Don’t remember who. It was on the Innuos insight thread.
But apparently you can’t run Roon and LMS in the same time.
@CrystalGipsy may give the response here.

There is a plugin for LMS (Logitech media centre) the old server software they used before Sense. This plugin acts as a UPnP bridge. It advertises the UPnP renderer of your Naim as a Squeezebox device using Squeezelite. As Sense or Roon supports Squeezebox it can be then played to via sense as an endpoint, with caveats. You won’t get artwork , you only get max 192/24, no memory playback buffer and it may or may not work. It never worked reliably for me, fine with my Atom which I don’t need it for but other UPnP it was useless. Not sure they are officially supporting this plugin currently, although it’s likely they only way for them to get it to work across multiple devices that are not their own servers.

When running Roon core you can’t run LMS as well or Sense. Tbh the Innuos is not a good choice for Roon core as it’s just not got the real grunt , large libraries and multiple zones would start to show it’s weakness here, single device likely ok though . As it’s more active software it’s also electrically more noisy which most users feels affects sq as it doesn’t take the benefits of Innuos memory playback to help negate it, experimental mode helps here but it’s not as good as their own server/player as that’s just less busy over all. This is why Roon always say to separate core and playback chain which, Innuos are best used as a player only for Roon really but the choice is there to use both but with caveats. It’s not an officially supported Roon core or player for a reason it’s not Roon Ready like ND555 it uses Roon bridge so has not been optimised as a Roon Ready device would have been.

1 Like

It will run large libraries and zones with no problem, I’ve done so. However if you are wanting to do any serious upscaling etc your better off elsewhere. I’ve read lots about the need to seperate core and player but I could not hear any difference when I did so with my zenith acting as player. I no longer use Roon or a streamer with my zenith preferring it via usb with a phoenix usb and the new software which sounds very considerably better

@Michaelb experimental mode is for USB output only so how are using this is if your only using the Innuos as a server and not as a player via USB to a DAC.

I have no idea: I simply selected it and it worked. I had no idea it was supposed to be for USB only. There was certainly no information on the settings page stating that. Are you sure that’s still the case?

The current wording is:

“Please choose if you want to use this server as a Roon Core Server, just as a Roon Player connecting to another Roon Server on your network or as a Roon Core Server using Squeezelite as player”

Maybe it’s just a matter of the caching only working with USB?

I think that’s the thing: you simply can’t reap the full potential of the Innuos servers using Ethernet output at present, making them a less compelling proposition than with Chord DACs for example.

2 Likes

Yes its usb only to use the Innuos as a player in any scenario it’s via USB only. It’s just your ND555 as a Roon endpoint if over the network as it was before. The Innuos show up as an endpoint in Roon to add it and it will show as a Squeezebox endpoint but this is the Innuos as a player via its usb output. Your ND555 will appear as a Roon Ready endpoint as per normal and is the only way to get it there. You can’t use experimental over the network as it’s using local player on the Innuos and using the memory buffer. This buffer does nothing for network playback its to limit noise for local playback off it’s disks.

1 Like

My understanding was that with the ND555 connected to the Innuos “Streamer” output and not to any network switch (including PN) the options are Innuos as Bridge, Innuos as Core and Player/Endpoint running the related Roon SW or Innuos as Core and Player/Endpoint running Innuos’s own Experimental Squeezelite-based SW solution, with whatever feature sets the different outputs offer only coming into play subsequently.

So you’re saying that selecting the latter is effectively like not having enabled any Innuos Roon option, with Innuos simply providing the network connection to the ND555 as Roon endpoint with the Core functions continuing to be provided by the Nucleus+?

That’s not contradicted by my SQ findings and it could of course be that the Phoenix instability was unrelated. Roon did, however, recognise this as an alternative configuration requiring an update which the Roon SW Core+Endpoint configuration had not needed.

Your caching information also interests me: that it’s not implemented for all sources like on the ND555, just for on-board storage.

I can imagine this will be touched on next week with Innuos so I’ll try and remember to bring it up and let you know what they say - not because I don’t trust your understanding but because this could potentially be a “moving target” with recent innuOS updates, complicating what is already a somewhat confusing situation…

Michael I think your very much misunderstanding the concept of how this works. Let me try to explain.

Innuos as Roon server only the Innuos is the core replacing the Nucleus. Endpoints are served over network such as ND555 same as using your Nucleus.

Innuos as Roon server with Roon player. Innuos is Roon core and streamer with local playback over USB out to a DAC. The local player here uses Roon Bridge software. Your ND555 will be seen as normal and can be used the same as with Nucleus as a Roon Ready endpoint.

Innuos as server with experimental player. Innuos is Roon core and streamer with local playback over USB. The local player here uses Squeezelite and takes advantage of the large memory buffer but is not the most stable as Roon isn’t designed with memory playback in mind and it doesn’t officially support Squeezelite and can cause dropouts and other such problems. It’s better than it was though. In this scenario you ND555 is served the same as above and is not affected by this as it’s using the same built in Roon Ready input. There is no way to use the advantages of Squeezlite experimental mode unless you use USB output of the Innuos to a DAC or use a USB to Spdif converter out of the Innuos to a DAC

Innuos sense and LMS UPnP bridge plugin. Innuos is server, the bridge software detects UPnP renderers and routes them via the software to mimic a Squeezlite device. These can be detected by Sense and used to play to ND555 using Sense app.if your running Roon core on Nucleus it will see the ND555 as a Squeezebox endpoint and it can be added as an endpoint . In this the ND555 is still served by network. It does not take advantage of any of the buffer etc as I have already described. In this mode you won’t get artwork on the ND555 screen, limited to 192/24 and it’s prone to fall over from time to time. It’s not commercial software and is maintained by a member of the LMS community. People with older streamers use this bridge to get Roon on them.

Innuos sense and Innuos player. Innuos is server and streamer and uses Squeezelite and all the benefits of the memory buffer etc but is for local playback only over USB to a DAC.

If your hearing changes when enabling Experimental mode this is rather odd as in no way is it involved in the playback chain to the ND555 unless its taking a wired input from the USB out of the Innuos to Spdif in on ND555.

3 Likes

Thanks for taking the time to write all that. I understood the configurations but basically until now not that Innuos music servers don’t actually control anything at all over Ethernet, that Sense can’t play anything unless a USB DAC is connected and that you can only control the ND555 from the Innuous player when using the Roon Core Server and Roon Player options which use RAAT.

However, what you say about Experimental mode doesn’t quite square with what is happening here. When I select Experimental mode I can then select the Innuous as Roon Core in Roon, deauthorise the Nucleus+ and use Roon pretty much as normal with the ND555 connected to the Ethernet Streamer port, so Experimental mode must be working in some way without using / having anything connected to the USB output.

That is however something it may be worth exploring if I have the time while the demo units are here.

One thing is for sure, though: the PheonixNet works very nicely… much better than either the Melco or EtherRegen.

No your just using the Innuos as a core it works the same as the Nucleus. Experimental mode is using Squeezelite as Roons player on the Innuos instead of Roon Bridge. It doesn’t touch the ND555 path at all. Squeezlite is just player software to output to a DAC it’s not a network transfer or anything. The difference is likely your using the ethernet out of the Innuos to the ND555 which is acting as a switch, like how Melcos operate. But this has nothing to do with experimental playback. Your still using just RAAT here.

Thanks. So with Experimental mode selected in the Innuos the Squeezelite part is not used because it is only for USB operation and the Innuos is working as a “normal” Roon Core using RAAT over the Ethernet - so effectively the same thing as Roon Core only mode.

As for the SQ comment, I was getting confused about the differences between using the Innuos as Core and Player only. I’d correct my post if it wasn’t too late.

Basically, I found the order in increasing SQ: Innuos as NAS, Innuos as Roon Core, Innuos as Roon Player, but best of all for the ND555 at the moment Nucleus+ (away from rack) to PhoenixNet and straight to ND555.

Anyway I look forward to hearing what Innuos have to say next week, including about the unresponsive Zenith.

Yep that’s it.

Experimental was Innuos way to try and improve SQ for Roon playback over Roon bridge when running the Innuos as a streamer and core. As it’s essentially a computer and computers are generally noisy. They have negated this with all the separated PSUs, filtering etc and the last pieces being the large memory buffer and their tweaks to the new OS. Roons a far more CPU active and network busy application than their own software or LMS so the last stages not being available are not mitigated in the same way. With sense they have reduced all unnecessary activity and they have an offline mode which turns off internet completely to supposedly improve things more, others on here say it gives an uplift.

I guess you have to decide if all this is worth it if your using network playback to your ND555 and is it an uplift in using the Innuos as a streamer and using either a USB to Spdif converter into the ND555 or a separate DAC. The former will be a more far comparison as the ND555 DAC would be the same in both cases, using an external DAC to your amplification is not apples to apples comparison. In the end only you can decide. Many use the Innuos using the Audiophileo converted and swear by them.

Does the Innuos improve on the Nucleus in your current experiments?

I imagine the freezing is having experimental on with no DAC attached might be causing Squeezelite some issues.

1 Like

I have to confess it’s a bit complicated, I would have certainly to read 3 or 4 times the Crystalgipsy post to understand all. And even I am not sure I will :laughing:

It’s a rather weird situation.

On the plus side, the PhoenixNet makes a very positive difference so all good there.

The Statement does not, however, improve things over the Nucleus+ and PhoenixNet. So, unless Innuos come up with some cunning suggestions when they get back into work next week, it will be a matter of waiting to see whether they are willing and able to implement enough of the USB goodness for the Ethernet side in the future.

The other possibility would be to try the Statement with a Chord Dave and see what I think of that, but the dealer who procured these demo models can’t help with that and I’m reaching the end of my patience for the time being, partly because the Nucleus+ with Sean Jacobs PSU, PhoenixNet and ND555 sound so good together.

The PhoenixNet will also lower my box count…

@MidnightRambler I’d definitely recommend giving it an audition compared to your EtherRegen + SotM switch

2 Likes

Good job I didn’t add the Innuos as UPnP server into the mix as well. With this you use the UPnP controller your happy with. :wink:

1 Like