Planned obsolescence

I’m replying to your last post.

Denizens of Oldham have far more pressing issues worthy of their ire at present.

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I’m not 100% sure what you mean, but I don’t think that is correct.

When streaming from a PC or NAS, the PC and NAS must have the LM Server installed on that device. I can see that this server could be controlling things.

However, when streaming from the internet, only the LM Server built into the SBT is used. (I’m streaming Tidal at the moment with the NAS drive switched off).

If another streaming service springs up in the the next couple of years, I’m confidednt I’ll be able to access it thought SBT. But, equally confident I won’t be able to access it through the QB.

Is it actually technically impossible to enable the QbMkOne to stream Qobus, or, is it simply the fact it would be expensive to do so. :cowboy_hat_face:

It’s technically impossible, since you ask.

Nice box.

It’s not quite the same. The polyphon was designed to play music stored in a particular format. The single is a different format. Streamed music is a different format.

Naim streamers are capable streaming MP3, WAV, FLAC, etc from a number of streaming sites. That is what they are designed to do.

People are simply asking why some Naim streamers (the older ones) are incapable of streaming MP3, WAV, FLAC, etc from a particular (new) streaming site.

The process is still streaming MP3, WAV, FLAC, etc. :cowboy_hat_face:

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Thanks for that. That explains a lot.

The problem is, the average consumer doesn’t have your in depth knowledge.

I must confess having not updated the app yet that my initial thoughts were that this was something I might not want in relation to the Nova and was something perhaps more for the Muso range, something users might want in connected lifestyle products.

I was also perplexed that Favourites somehow amalgamates favourites from Tidal/Qobuz/possibly elsewhere - again personally I prefer to navigate by device ro streaming service and if I’ve set up preferences/favourites on one they are for that and should not be considered generic choices.

In favourites you have a drop down option where you can pick your source of favourites.

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Really. Unbelievable.

The problem is. I’ve been using a cheap budget consumer grade streamer for the past 10 years which seems capable of accessing every major streaming site.
I did assume (wrongly), all streamers would have this capability. I’m sure a lot of people who bought the QbMkOne also assumed this. Very Poor.

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I find comments like this bewildering.

If Naim moved an input to underneath a box there would be uproar. Why, because a thing that sells in part on ease of use just betrayed that promise. In a hardware world users absolutely felt they had the right to complain if the functionality wasn’t right. Some pucks are better than others. Some buttons and volume knobs better placed than others.

As we move to streaming so the functionality moves from the box to the app. If the app makes something really easy even slightly harder than it ought to be then users are once again going to feel they absolutely have the right to complain.

The issues here are several. I’ve little sympathy with the planned obsolescence angle. Most internet enabled products nowadays do well to have a life span of 4 years. Phone, TV, whatever. There’s no solution to that bar going analogue. The closest I have as a solution for me is that I never buy first generation anything.

Whilst Naim will openly admit they didn’t really get the platform right with the first round of streamers I find the idea of complaining about them being unable to run something like Qobuz laughable. A complaint about a whole new class of device not supporting a site which barely existed a year before it and didn’t take off until about 7 years after it! Nope.

On the other hand I think there’s validity to the app complaint and I genuinely don’t think Naim have got the balance right yet in terms of update frequency nor user interface. It’s nice I can have multiple iPhone or iPad screens but why do I need to have to access anything on a second page? If an app can’t increase the speed at which you find and play music or configure your device then the product has been over-sold. Hundreds of people yelling how much more convenient streaming is but if the app introduces a niggle, especially one noted in testing, then the speed at which that gets fixed is hugely persuasive of whether people remain with the product.

I’m sure many would disagree. It doesn’t make it any less true. Is our NDX owner more or less likely to see the solution to his woes as buying a new device from Naim.

Compare the Naim app response time to other apps when you raise an issue via for example an iOS review or on here. Like it or not that is the right measure and Naim are falling short on this front at present.

I don’t honestly believe for one minute that it’s technically impossible, and I don’t think that’s actually quite what Naim said either. The fact remains, though, that Naim streamers were developed and optimised for local streaming in such a way as to make the latency issues difficult to manage with the small buffers in the old streamers. It took Naim a great deal of time and effort to get this optimised to the point it has reached now with Tidal.
For Naim to embark on such a venture again with Qobuz would swallow a lot of resources which, as a relatively small company, they probably feel they need to use elsewhere. So I would say unrealistic rather than technically impossible.

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I am mildly confused by this thread.

On one hand, I design and advise on the design of interactive products - so I get the frustrations of ‘upgrades’ that people find less usable or aesthetically pleasing or require more navigation around.

On the other, one of he great things about Naim kit is that after an initial ‘out of the shop’ depreciation, it holds its value far better than most - so there actually is a clear upgrade route though selling the older device and buying (preferably used or ex-demo) a newer one, and not losing anything like as much as with other brands…

For things they have little control over, it’s hard to blame them for how stuff develops. For the things they do (and their apps are one of those) they could try to make the UX better for those with older kit as well as those with newer stuff. But they also have control over the quality and engineering in their products and by keeping these high, they ensure good resale value…

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Would you like to hear something really funny?

When I purchased my QbMkOne, it was advertised and sold with 9 months free subscription to Deezer.

Now, you would think that as the Qb and Deeezer where sold as a bundle, it would be possible to stream deezer with the Qb.
WRONG. Deezer can’t be used with the Qb. Oh, how I laughed. :cowboy_hat_face:

Fortunatley, with a few clicks of a mouse I was able to stream Deezer, using my 10 year old Squeezebox Touch.

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Why? Second hand obsolete Sonos products tend to cost relatively little like most consumer technology products. As far as I am aware they are not serviceable. My early generation Sonos is worth next to nothing now.
The residual value of Naim products remains remains unusually high for consumer products , no doubt because they don’t plan obsolescence and they maintain life long support, service and repair where electronic components remain available.
. If you want a newer and/or more capable product from Naim sell or trade in the old one via a dealer. At the moment used prices are unusually high. From time to time there are offers and incentives via the dealership network.

It’s a point of reference not an apples for apples analogy.
Other premium Hifi brands do offer more agility and flexibility.
Resell residuals are definately a plus with Naim products you don’t see from others that’s a valid point.
I would put Muso products in the same category as Sonos, a multiroom system of either can be £££ which is a lot to many consumers, if you’d bought something like that a few years ago you may be disappointed to find it can’t support new features.
I’d take the perspective here of an average consumer looking to make a product/vendor choice and stumbling across this forum in a search not the multi decade Naim owners that are regular readers and contributors.

If thats the case thats interesting, however I am still not convinced a SBT is doing the horse work are you not logged into squeezebox on line? I looked into the tinyserver software on it, does not look the sort of thing that can handle multiple APis.

If however it can, thats pretty cool, probably why they are snapped up when they come up. But equally it appears to be the only SB that could do this.

I believe in incompetence rather than conspiracies (they take a lot of effort to pull off), so feel it is a lack of planning that is the problem here. While I can see where people are coming from with the “the old product still works, get a grip”, it misses the wider point: I expected more from a brand like Naim.

I upgraded from the Uniti to the SuperUniti in April 2016. Delivery date was missed (without warning) and received the box in June. I was less than happy with the Nova announcement that August and have felt unloved by Naim since then. There has often been some way to update equipment (e.g. streaming board for Uniti, DR for NAP) but I am stuck with a quickly depreciating product and feeling worse for the unfortunate timing of my purchase.

I am used to obsolescence in computing but product cadence can be expected (predicted in many cases) and is often signalled by the suppliers: I knew my Mac Mini from 2010 was not going to get the last major OS update but Apple have produced three more models since then: discontinuing does not mean a complete loss of support / new features. I must upgrade to a Nova, if I want integrated Qobuz, but I am now uncertain about how long the Nova will be updated for / when Nova 2 will be announced: the current model was announced four years ago (the expected product lifespan according to some people).

I’ve not had the app update on my Android phone yet, so not sure what the specific issue is, but I get a new pang of “buyer’s remorse” every time I hear of updates like this: Naim don’t care about me. There are various workarounds (£roon / bubble) but they are all kludges. I have considered writing a proxy server that looks like a new Naim box to the mobile app but redirects requests to an old box, implementing the new features where necessary… but that is a lot of effort for one user and I expect Naim would discourage mention of it on their forum.

I realise Naim has had to learn fast with streaming but I’m not sure what they think their support obligations are: a clear indication of support scope / timelines would better align my expectations to what Naim will provide in the future.

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xcentric I think you are partly right and partly wrong. I have a couple of sets of very old Naim amps and I love them. They still fulfill the needs I have of them e.g. I can connect a streamer even though streamers were not around in 1990. However with streaming kit that is not upgradable in a changing market they will not hold the same level of value. A bit like a turntable than can only play 78’s.

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Technically impossible - what rubbish Naim is peddling - anything is possible - may not be economically viable but it must be possible. Qobuz is not from a different planet to Tidal.
The reason is that the Marketing Department has locked the door to the Engineering Department perhaps!

Calling it “drama” belittles the way I feel about it. I realise that this might all come across as sour grapes / first-world problems to you (and not saying you are necessarily wrong) but the timing / handling of my purchase is very relevant to me… and clearly some others (recent buyers of Qb1?).

It is also colouring my decisions about future Naim purchases. I’m not about to sell all my Naim gear just because the app has an icon I can’t make use of (everything still sounds great) but it does make me wish for a more open ecosystem (like the SBT has) to give me back control after the manufacturer is unwilling / unable to support me.