Planned obsolescence

Did the update, for me it’ll make little difference, though appreciate others may not like it.

It actually pushes local servers to the middle of the row on my phone which I like.

My daughter has a WX-030 and a couple of other Yamaha units, which I’ve used with Qobuz in the UK. As you say, maybe a regional issue. I guess you could use AirPlay.

Of course, as I mentioned earlier I’m not offended by the firmware on the wx-030 not updating to Qobuz or Airplay 2, Muso 1 as well. I have many ways to play to them, the Bubbleupnp app on Android does it nicely and is my first choice.

Naim has a strong brand of being stable and dependable, improving products over time and providing upgrade paths. Products like the NAP 250 were introduced in 1975 and you can bring old ones closer to the modern spec with DR upgrade, etc. The early Uniti range didn’t have Tidal at the start and could have a streaming board update. Thinking a Tidal-like provider that is popular with audiophiles might be added is not unreasonable in that context. It is not that I expect all new services to be supported and clearly there is a limit to what is practical but without some sort of public policy when I bought the SU, you can’t blame me for being surprised at how quickly the model was shelved.

Having invested in Naim, and liking the sound, I’d settle for a Naim streaming transport if they did one. Ideally they would make a digitally-oriented integrated amp (with built-in DAC) to naturally pair with it. I have seriously considered the ND5 XS 2 but that would double-up on DACs… or be a rather pricey external streaming board. The other solutions are kludges and mean the Naim app is mostly redundant (save for changing inputs and settings).

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Naim did add some streaming services to the ‘old’ platform, and as I understand it it’s “simply” a technical issue that stopped them from adding more.

If you think that that technical limitation resulted from poor design planning on their part - I have to abstain from judgment as it’s far from my areas of expertise.

And obviously Naim are at the mercy of the services and their technical requirements. Again, whether Naim didn’t plan “well enough” is not something I can comment on technically.

You can control the playback of media served locally to the Uniti by using UPnP / DLNA protocol: API (Application Programming Interface) might not be the clearest term to use, as it can imply a programming library, but the Interface part is key here. The UPnP support means apps like BubbleUpnp can be used for playback. The Naim app uses an unpublished protocol for switching inputs, changing settings, etc. I think this is the aspect you are referring to. It is private in the sense of not being published but is fairly simple to decode: something I’ve done in the past. However Naim have historically been sensitive to discussions around this (perhaps lumping it in with discussions about electronic mods to their kit).

Publishing the API / Protocol is unlikely to help unless Naim also allowed people to collaborate on producing an integrated software workaround… something I can’t see happening.

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This is correct on 2 fronts. Wrong on one.

It is correct this is silly pedantry on my part and doesn’t change your point being made. Naim could publish a developers guide for talking to the streamers. They choose not to. I in fact asked them in 2013 and was politely told to go away. But as others pointed out, it’s a control mechanism only. It can’t add Roon functionality or anything like. At most you could redesign the app.

It’s also correct that UPnP uses SOAP in a loose way.

But as someone that worked on SOAP for years, it’s known to be famously misnamed. It neither has “shared objects” nor is it an API. It’s a protocol for which you can build other protocols on top (which UPnP is) or, if something broader is required an API. I’ve worked on both during my career in telecommunications and fintech.

It’s also impossible to stream with a record player…, nothing wrong with the record player, but simply not designed for it…, just use your equipment you used it the day you bought it, and you will be happy again!! It’s also im I am very happy with my 272 in combination with Tidal and a Melco…

Not if you have a new Uniti… ! Plug it in, turn it on, give it a spin, and it will play locally plus stream multiroom throughout your home. Cool, eh?!

Regards alan

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You could also fit a Urika II to an LP12 which has Exakt and Toslink outputs, I’m pondering this solution for doing digital copies of vinyl too.

it’s shame - I’v jut bought gen2 Muso QB next to gen1 Muso an believed that multiroom works as promised… I thought this would solve major problems, but not…

Since I’m considering buying a Qb2, and already own a Uniti and Qb1’s. Could you elaborate on what issues you have with Multiroom between them?

I think this whole commynity is for gen1/gen2 connction faults… There is topic where we tried to find solutions to connection problems… If you want multiroom I believe that gen 2 devices are more talented…

I have Qb1 and Qb2 with Nova and ND555. The Qb1s work fine in multiroom groups with all the others as far as I have noticed. Have you any specific issues that we may be able to help you resolve?

I have Atom and QB1 and multiroom works fine. Indeed it even enables me to stream Qobuz to the QB — a bonus I did not expect.

Roger

Well, didn’t Sonos try to permanently cut off old hardware, pretty much forcing customers to upgrade at some point, to later reverse this policy in the face of general uproar and bad publicity? The point is that the old Naim kit still does all of what it did when we bought it - which by the way is what we expect in the analog world: our pre-amps, amps and power supplies are not doing anything any different than when we bought them, in fact they decay slightly and we get them re-capped occasionally, etc. nobody is complaining about that. The old streamer all work fine, and we can do everything we used to when we bought them… is that the definition of obsolescence? not getting access to new features is one thing, but the old kit is perfectly functional, supported and good sounding, no?

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Yes something like that, this is what was said by the CEO Patrick Spence in January this year.

“We heard you. We did not get this right from the start. My apologies for that and I wanted to personally assure you of the path forward:

First, rest assured that come May, when we end new software updates for our legacy products, they will continue to work just as they do today. We are not bricking them, we are not forcing them into obsolescence, and we are not taking anything away. Many of you have invested heavily in your Sonos systems, and we intend to honour that investment for as long as possible. Whilst legacy Sonos products won’t get new software features, we pledge to keep them updated with bug fixes and security patches for as long as possible. If we run into something core to the experience that can’t be addressed, we’ll work to offer an alternative solution and let you know about any changes you’ll see in your experience.

Secondly, we heard you on the issue of legacy products and modern products not being able to coexist in your home. We are working on a way to split your system so that modern products work together and get the latest features, whilst legacy products work together and remain in their current state. We’re finalising details on this plan and will share more in the coming weeks.

Whilst we have a lot of great products and features in the pipeline, we want our customers to upgrade to our latest and greatest products when they’re excited by what the new products offer, not because they feel forced to do so. That’s the intent of the Trade Up programme we launched for our loyal customers.

“ Thank you for being a Sonos customer. Thank you for taking the time to give us your feedback. I hope that you’ll forgive our misstep and let us earn back your trust. Without you, Sonos wouldn’t exist and we’ll work harder than ever to earn your loyalty every single day. “

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Not quite IMO. I already mentioned this above. You’re completely right about the ‘analog world’, nobody would expect Naim to add new input types for example. In the ‘digital world’ it’s slightly different I’d say. When you (certainly I) buy a digital product like that, I expect (over the air) updates, bugfixes, improvements etc. This was part of what Naim offered, part of their sales/marketing, so in a way I and others did not get what we bought.

And of course it’s not reasonable to expect of Naim that they keep developing for it until the end of time (the OP’s 4 years is probably the upper limit of what can reasonably be expected), but I would have never bought my Qb’s on the understanding that a newer version was about to be released and I wouldn’t even receive a single update, ever. Let’s face it, it’s not without issues, so I’m not just talking new features.

Specific features (Qobuz for example) might simply not even be possible, I can understand that. And we can debate how long they should keep updating/improving things for and whether that period could have been lessened with a trade-in program. I personally think 2 years would have been reasonable, and I would have been happy with a trade-in program as well. But certainly the latter might not apply to everyone. As said, that’s debatable.

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I do understand and sympathise with the frustration (I have a Qb v1 too, amongst other pieces of kits, and more on order). I would add that there has never been a claim by Naim that further streaming services (like Qobuz) would definitely be supported in any of the marketing material, AFAIK, but I appreciate this is not necessarily a good example of “managing expectations”… :slight_smile:

My point remain that what we purchased is operating the way it did when we bought it - including niggling issues in some cases, of course - at no extra cost to us, and for the foreseeable future. It will never be in any firm’s commercial interest to advertise the fact that an existing product will be discontinued in 18 or 24 months time, as it would materially reduce the revenue stream from it, unless it is part of a deliberate strategy to get rid of extra stock, at reduced prices. This is more likely to be a strategy for much more mass market/lower value products than even the MuSo line, though…

When it comes to a trade-in program, several retailers are actually offering so, and there is obviously an active second hand market. It is clear that people seeking new features wont go second hand, and streamers are very unlikely to hold their value as much as the purely analog products - I think this will always be true for faster moving technology: how much would we want to spend on a 3yo PC, let alone 10yo… I also do not think the size of Naim as a company makes it possible to run such a program economically (recycling parts and materials from older kits will require significant volumes to be anywhere near worth the effort/investment).

My personal view on this (I am in the process of upgrading a Uniti v1 + 94/192 upgrade to a ND5XS2 + SuperNait3) is to focus more of my investment in the longer lasting part of the setup - SN3 in my opinion - and shy away from the better sounding NDX2, for which the incremental cost vs ND5XS2 is very significant but the residual value will probably decay faster than the SN3’s. It is a personal balance / choice, of course, and also goes against the accepted “source first” wisdom, but I feel that, as and when the 3rd generation streamers come out, and eventually offer features the 2nd generation simply wont have the necessary hardware to support, I may feel less bothered… I fully appreciate that this is not really an option in the all-in-one market, just offering a perspective and reflecting on my own approach to investment in technology, not giving advice in any way. And I am still impressed with the sound quality I get from my Qb v1, btw!