Were the S20s well run in? They are certainly not a speaker I would describe as having harsh treble, having listened to my dealers demo pair on a number of occasions, other than when they are new, in which case like most Kudos speakers they seem to need quite a few hours on them for the highs to sound right.
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Yes, they were approx 3 tears old and were a px my dealer had taken in. They were well run in and well looked after. Iām convinced the issue was in part down to my slightly forward system and part due to my room interaction. Iām not saying the S20ās are a bad speaker, far from it. Its just that they didnāt work for my ears in my room and with my system.
I donāt think you need to apologise, theyāre a speaker that can work out badly. I heard them demoing gear at a dealerās and thought they sounded very poor, with an inarticulate bass and lack of texture in the midrange as well as a slightly thin and cuppy treble.
Thatās the only time I heard them and they definitely didnāt play well with the room, so not a rounded assessment, but they were so bad that I asked for some headphones to evaluate certain aspects of the gear I was auditioning and found the experience so frustrating that the journey ended in no sale.
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Apart from this, did they sound pretty good Michael? 
Best regards, BF
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Apart from that they were absolutely fantastic! 
Inky black silences to die forā¦
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OK, so its update time.
The Fact 8ās have gone back to the dealer. The soundstage was fantastic and very detailed, but the bass was missing and just not quite there. They are very dry in their presentation but managed to get muddled in the mids. Cello and Timpani became a mess together but lacked any impact. I actually asked the dealer to set them up when I took them back as I thought they were broken, but apparently not. The treble did get fatiguing but not as severe as the S20ās. This may have been me turning up the volume to try and force some bass out, but for my ears, the balance was not there.
As a slight follow on, I was at my normal dealer last week for a NDX-2 audition. Set up with 282, 250dr and S20ās it was just too much. After much discussion we tried a Linn ADS as the dealer felt the more relaxed presentation might be better for my obviously sensitive ears, well it certainly made a difference.
Iām now booked in for a full Linn audition at the end of the month and I can see my Naim boxes getting nervous. Perhaps a more relaxed presentation and the benefits of Space Optimisation will win out and enable me to get some better speakers, maybe not the S20ās, but something bigger and more expressive than my current X2ās.
Thank you all who contributed to this thread. We all know there is no substitute for listening in you own room with your equipment, but its always nice to get different views.
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Iain, all this requires patience doesnāt it!?
As a matter of interest was there a significant between your sources? I ask purely because a CDX2 is rather lively.
Regards,
Lindsay
You should beware of throwing the baby out with the bath water. You have a lovely Naim system but want some better speakers. Youāve tried two speakers and donāt like them. It seems illogical to then consider changing all the electronics so that you can get some different speakers, especially when you have no idea what those speakers might be.
Surely itās better to try a few more alternative speakers. It may also be worthwhile seeing if you can lose the cabinet so that your speakers can breathe. By enclosing one on three sides you are giving it a real challenge. Speakers sound so much better with a bit of space to each side.
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Thanks for sharing your home 
demo experience @IainW! Depending on expectation, bass might disappoint ā they arenāt the size of Fact 12, for instance, at the end of the day. But I was surprised that the mids were muddled. That wasnāt my experience when listening to a pair in a dealerās demo room. This really underlines the importance of 
demos whenever possible!
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Iām having a similar issue and the root cause is the roomā¦ā¦ tried linn as they have the room optimisation software and whilst nice it simply didnāt have the āslam or punchā that you get with Naimā¦.
My current set up with focal Kantaās sounded amazing in my old house but hopeless in my new one - it really is that starkā¦.
Moved to a different room and itās better but the Kantaās are a tad big for the room and the system falls apart when the volume hits 9.00. Blooming frustrating but now working with my dealer on speaker options ā¦ā¦again!
Gary
Hi Lindsay,
The S20ās have been tried with CDX-2, NDX-2, ND5XS2 and LP12. The Fact 8ās with CDX-2 and LP12.
It certainly is something that takes time and Iām not rushing into anything. I would have put money on it being my room causing issues due to difficulty placing speakers and large amounts of glass, but it was the same in the Leicester demo room, which is quite different.
KR
Iain
Hi HH,
Iām not going to make any rash decisions and wonāt be rushing to change anything. The thoughts of a speaker change came after the LP12 went in and hearing it on some T808ās was quite frankly staggering. Well the 808ās are a bit out of budget but the scale and richness is something else. Tied to this is a desire to add a streamer which I have been putting off for a while, but it is now the right time to make that move for me.
I have some speaker options to try, but I will also be trying a full Linn system (electronics) to see how it compares. If I was forced to decide on a streamer after last weeks demo, I would have walked out with a Linn Akurate DS over the NDX2/XPSdr. Soundstage was not as expansive, but much nicer presentation for my ears.
I think HH makes a good point, you donāt need/have to do anything and certainly not because you heard some 808s and they sounded great, they do I knowš.
Regards,
Lindsay
Hi Iain, I sympathise, choosing speakers is so difficult and I think personal choice is more important than for other components. Is there any chance you could try ATC SCM40s? Their midrange is beautifully clear and unmuddled thanks, I suspect, to ATCās famous midrange driver. The other two drivers are no slouch either. To me they excel with well recorded acoustic material and give a fine sense of being in the room with the musicians. Also, as closed boxes they are a bit less room fussy than many ported designs.
Roger
Thanks for the suggestion PeakMan. Again, its something I need to hear with my own ears. Usual reports are that they need to be cranked up to make them sing? I listen at quite a low level (7 to 8 on the dial), so may not work. Not keen on the chicken wire grills, but I have looked at the SCM20 PSLT, so they will get an audition.
Have you tried Sonus Faber speakers. If you search something smoother, nicer and non fatiguing, without changing your Naim electronics, it would be worth trying.
Harbeth too.
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Thanks FR, Sonus Faber are top of my list, and come with automatic approval from MrsW due to the aesthetics.
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I had 3 sets of PMC speakers over 10 years culminating in 25.26 until 10 months ago when I upgraded to Titan 606. Equally unfussy about placement the Titans suit my system better (252/300DR) but the 25.26s are no slouch. I also auditioned Fact 8 and Fact 12 but the bass performance was disappointing. The T606 was a fabulous investment and likely my last speakers. The other thing worth mentioning is that both Kudos and PMC source their tweeters from SEAS. Although the Kudos versions are superior the PMCs arenāt exactly the poor relations.
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So the 606 might be a good one to listen it ā or in the PMC stable, the Twenty5.26, if you are after more bass, and their mid-driver is also highly regarded. @popeye will vouch for the Twenty5.26ās mid-driver. 
P.S. Ops, @Toon was faster mentioning these two.
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Canāt say I find the bass lacking with my fact 12ās, infact I run them with the rear switch in minus.
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