You can buy Keel alot cheaper used and other items such as Karousel and Ekos 1 or 2 and get a top knotch turntable.
For what it’s worth I have Kore and an Akito tonearm which was upgraded with new wire and bearings replaced by Audio Origami.
It sounds great, but I have been advised that Keel and new tomearm are way to go and a Radikal power supply. Cost of upgrades around £4k to £6k used. Then new cart and phonostage. So ends up being £7k to £9k
I am leaving my turntable as it is but it could be alot better with the upgrades. Currently Akito upgraded, Kore, Lingo 1, Cirkus bearing.
If I did an upgrade would go Karousel first then radikal. Then Keel and Ekos 2 or if I had money Ekos SE. Cart would have to be done at same and Urika phonostage.
Sometimes easier and better to buy new turntable or look at alternatives as this is big money.
And they perform very differently shall we say. Like so many third-party attempts that I have seen and heard over the years. Be happy with your Stack kit as you always seem to be promoting it,
Anyway, of all the third-party subchassis is that I have seen over the past 20 years or so, since the Keel was first launched, it’s fair to say it’s sub-chassis that has pushed the Keel the hardest, was one by Tangerine called the Phoenix. As always a straight A/B comparison, with all components being the same other than the one under consideration is the best way to judge, and I hope potential purchasers try and do this for their own benefit.
I assume you won’t answer my point on the 250s.
I will draw this conversation to a close here, as unlike you, I am subject to moderation.
Karousel and Radikal1/2 make the most fundamental changes. The Keel is just icing on the cake. I added Rad1 and Keel just before the Rad2 upgrade came out. When I upgraded the Radikal it was a bigger up lift than adding the Radikal1/Keel before it.
I share my experiences for the benefit of the community, nothing more, nothing less, “promoting” is not a fair characterization of what I do here. For the record, I don’t make a single penny out of StackAudio or any other manufacturer, there is zero conflict of interest on my end, not sure you can make the same claim.
No because as I already explained it goes off on a tangent, and I would rather stay in subject, neither inflation or economic theory is relevant to what’s being discussed.
That could be the case, but IME it depends on how you’re planning to sell the LP12, for example the first LP12 that I owned was sold recently on eBay with several third party upgrades for a fair market price. To your point, I’m sure that if I would have taken it to a dealer for trade-in or consignment it would have been a different story.
I suppose I shouldn’t feel smug, but I said from the day it was fitted, that Karousel was the best ever LP12 upgrade, made more remarkable by the relatively low cost.
I had it fitted about October 2020 and said as much on this forum at the time.
It is nice to have my opinion vindicated by a respected professional.
I stopped dead at my Majik/Cirkus/Hercules level because I made the mistake to attend some demo events at my dealer. After hearing a Radikal (1 at the time) several times, also on a Majik, everything else seemed a pointless upgrade game before the inevitable. Saves me a lot of money for now!
Caveat: my ears are very much in the minority tastes among my dealer’s clients. Which is not unexpected, since also here I join the fans of the Nait 2 and MM carts, so there’s that.
I stopped visiting brick and mortar dealers a long time ago, largely to avoid self promoting know it all sales persons, I guess you can’t escape your fate as the saying goes…
There is nothing new to see here, but it seems to have been a while since we actually had anyone showing us a Sondek, and I am still a bit bowled over by how the Karousel, Keel, Radikal, Stiletto, Skorpion, Ekos, Kleos combo delivers.
But your value for money suggests the item alone, whereas the 66% performance is based on the final sound your judging.
A complete system worth £20,000 incl the Keel would sound like £13,200, but it’s only cost you £17,738. So you’ve lost 26% performance and as the Keel is at the heart of the system, 26% can’t come back.
A complete system worth £60,000 incl Keel would sound like £39,600, but it’s only cost you £57,738. So you’ve lost 32% performance and it gets worse the higher the value of your system.
If you owned a complete system worth £20,000 incl the Kore and then spent an extra £2,262 on a Keel, this would give you an extra 52% performance and yet you’ve only spent 11% extra.
I think that is a fine illustration of the limitations of using %s here - or at least that i shouldn’t try because I can’t claim anything like the accuracy implied.
Further, as others have mentioned, a Keel does not wear out, and they do turn up second-hand. The maths would look a bit different if you ‘only’ pay £1200 for it.
