Slowly losing faith

Streaming Audio
21

Hi @Fatcat

Re: power saving

it’s not a phone side issue, but some cheap consumer grade network switches/wifi routers. They’re simply broken and are only fit for basic tcp centric internet surfing, If attempting to do multicast udp traffic, typically it just goes no-where, so Apple Bonjour (airplay, spotify. Tidal connect, qobuz connect, naim app), SSDP (as used by UPnP) and other similar protocols stop working in an intermitent way. Not saying this is the customers problem, but we get a lot of blame on software (especially the apps) but 99% of the time we track it down to bad network equipment that is simply not fit for purpose and just can’t route data correctly,

Best

Steve

10 Likes
22

Yes of course, I’d missed this point. Though it should be said that I bought my SU shortly after Tidal was added and I never got it to work reliably.

23

When I was loaned a SuperUniti by my dealer while my 222 was being repaired I had no problems streaming from Tidal that I recall. It worked fine (on my home network).

24

Hi @ChrisByrd

On the old Bridgeco platform that Superuniti was based on (green screen products) it had a limitation in the ethernet interface inside the streaming core chip that limited the size of tcp window that it can accept at once. From memory it was something like 6Kbytes tcp window. This had the implication that it gets sensitive to network latency from the streaming services servers. For example try and stream 1Mbit/sec and can only receive 48kbit (6x8) per fetch + ack time. That means to achieve this the network must have max 1024/48 or just over 20ms latency which can be demanding, depending on the ISP and how busy their network is + sheer distance to server (speed of light becomes a factor).

When Bridgeco designed the chip in 2010 they didn’t see the future of lossless streaming service, as it just didn’t exist then. Let alone any streaming service apart from internet radio. This wan’t just a Naim thing - all manufacturers using Bridgeco had this issue - just that Naim products live on and most others do not + customers have open forums to gossip. :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:

This is also one of the reasons why we decided to not implement Qobuz on that platform as it would be just too sensitive to network latency. However, UPnP servers with Qobuz running on modern hardware can be used and they isolate the streamer from network latency as the latency is then just from streamer to the upnp server running on the LAN.

On newer products (from 2018 onwards) they can negotiate huge tcp windows +have 50MB playback input buffers so are very robust to internet issues. Typically within 20secs its fully playing from RAM. On products like CI102 they have a 250MB buffer so can RAM buffer demanding HD material.

Bit of a technical geek out, but summary is that Naim hardware has been capable of handling high latency and network jitter streaming for over 7 years.

Best wishes

Steve

12 Likes
25

We still use our SU in office, on WiFi (with no aerial attached!). It’s old tech but we never have any issues with it.

Only thing it can’t do is stream DSD from our NAS, the buffer can’t cope,

With an ND5XS2 or NDX2 or 333 you would expect zero issues unless there is an underlying network issue.

26

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I have been very happy with the SuperUniti and hope it lasts me for another few years yet. At some future point I might be able to upgrade to a new Naim streamer, but in the meantime it continues to serve me well.

1 Like
27

Over some 2 years my ND5XS2 has been just about perfect - no glitches, no resets just great reliable Spotify streaming. Connected to the router by ethernet, never tried wifi. Yours sounds like a faulty unit or a network issue.

1 Like
28

Actually, all of issues I experience, are quite popular on this forum. So, I don’t think it is my unit. More likely it is a sofware issue, when the streamer is incapable of working in the same conditions, where the rest of devices are functioning perfectly.

Say, the Spotify has never had any issues being asked to connect to different devices regardles of the wire or wireless. But it does have issues with the naim streamer in the very same network.

29

The opposite is also true: I have a Bluesound Node N130 that Spotify Connect always has a problem with. Not so with my Naim ND5XS2 or Bluesound Node Icon. All on the same network over WiFi. Strange things…

1 Like
30

Have you reached out to the Naim help desk as suggested?

1 Like
31

@Pauel Have you tried this?

1 Like
32

Before the latest update, i had lots of issues with the nd5xs2. The most common being it is unable to reset properly. I could go on trying to reset the unit multiple times and i always end up with a solid purple light. But after the update, resets lead to a blinking purple light as it should.

33

Can you please describe your network setup, so we can help with any obvious areas of concerns?
e.g.
Your Router model
Any other wifi routers with model numbers
Any Ethernet Switches with model numbers
Any Power Over Ethernet in use
Any Mesh ad-ons with model numbers
WiFi boosters

1 Like
34

Another vote for the Primare NP5. Super piece of kit. The Mk1 and Mk2 are basically the same except Mk2 does DSD and MQA (watch it on YouTube - different chip due to AKM factory fire).

Buy secondhand and no great loss if you don’t like it. BUT the ND5 XS2 should work.

2 Likes
35

Thanks! I’ll try.

36

Ok:

  1. From isp, a gpon router, no support for IPv6
  2. Then my own ASUS AX86U Pro, connected to gpon using cable and sits in its own subnet. All wifi devices are connected to it.
  3. Then another ASUS, but AX57 - the media bridge, to connect NAS + Roon, TV and Naim via cable, all three are exposed to the AX86U subnet
  4. No WiFi boosters, no Mesh, No PoE, no powerline internet, etc

With all steps to fix that were applied the typical response is almost immediate. Two years ago the response was from seconds to dozens of seconds.

Steps made:

  1. helped - added some ASUS router to solve issues by the weak isp gpon
  2. helped - upgraded that ASUS to AX86U Pro to solve issues by weak router :slight_smile:
  3. helped - removed all extenders, etc
  4. helped - added a bridge router, to connect by wire
  5. helped - replaced the bridge router to AX57 (media bridge mode, to be precise)
  6. helped - disabled several wifi devices
  7. helped - disabled dhcp
  8. not sure - always on, which I hate
  9. not sure - changed some cables
  10. not sure - played with server mode

However, there are still times when nobody is unable to connect to the streamer and I need to send it to deep sleep/awake

37

Many thanks for sharing that data. Possibly a lot to unpack there, and certainly may be worthy of a person-person chat with Naim support.

Can you confirm which devices have DHCP enabled?
Are all three devices (gpon and 2 ASUS) running WiFi, and if so are they on 3 separate SSID’s?

38

Only one of them distributes wifi - AX86U. gpon is an optical connection with wifi disabled, and the bridge is a kind of client middle man, to allow the wired clients to be connected to the main router.

DHCP enabled on AX86U, but the streamer does not use it.

39

Typically the main router would have DHCP enabled at factory settings, so are you saying that you have disabled it on the GPON?

40

Why is the streamer not using DHCP? A properly configured DHCP server should manage virtually all devices automatically.