Hi whsturm, yes I have read all the reviews on super 20s and they all say the same. I think one of the reasons they went isobaric on the titan range is to bring the mid /low up to the top end, one reviewer said something along the lines of 20s having a bass he could feel but not suited to rock more of a classical / jazz speaker ( my tastes are not limited to just rock). my problem is getting a even soundstage. Thanks to dens heads up on the new kudos set up guide I’am trying said set up. I have some nac A5 I used it for about 30 years, I’am beginning to think its bye bye kudos a hobby/passion shouldn’t be this much fuss. I will post a up date when I have finished the kudos set up. thanks for your input. neil
Hello Neil.
Your room is square like mine. The room effects to bass response a lot. If you play music, do you have a lot of bass at corners and much less in the middle of the room? If so, the room modes are propably the reason for lack of certain sound. Before i got bass traps i had 40 hz a lot and 50 hz nothing. The sound was irritating and i blamed the speakers. After good treatment the treble sounds very nice. Please do search square room in internet. The free messurement system ( dont remember the name ) helps finding the problems. One thing you could try is rule of 38% meaning to sit 38% from the lenght of the room and 38% from width.
Hope this helps
Regards Hannu
I use a power block and find it adds to the definition , I think the cheap surge protectors have been a bit of a no/no where Naim are concerned
However don’t worry about rambling, you haven’t been alone in that. There have been lots of people rambling (and not through the countryside either)
Hi lemans3,
It is untrue that 20s cannot do rock music. In fact I listen to a lot of heavy metal through C20. Been a C20 user for about 5-6 years. Very good start/stop and a rather tight bass for a ported design speaker. They are one of the easier speaker to position than some others I have had.
Imaging is decent but not their out and out strength I reckon.
You have a decent Naim equipments and should drive the S20 well. Chances are the speakers aren’t responding well to your room. If I may suggest, you try to loan a NAP250 from your dealer and see if the 250 will work better in your setup.
Good luck
I have found selecting speakers to be the hardest part of system building. Room-speaker interactions are a major cause of this, particularly where the listening room is also the lounge and major room treatment is not really feasible. Home auditioning is very helpful but not a guarantee of success. I auditioned my C20s at home before choosing them (perhaps they weren’t fully run in) but still found I couldn’t live with them long term.
In the end I think there comes a point where you have to admit defeat and try something else. It looks as if you’ve reached that point and trying something else is a sensible move. Best of luck in your search.
Roger
Hi CKF, Yes they do rock, when I had a home demo first track I tried was allman brothers stormy Monday, sounded great. I did wonder if my nap 160 may not have enough power to do the super 20s justice. I am doing some fine tuning of the kudos set up recommendations today, laser pointers, masking tape & tape measures all over the place. thanks for your post
This must all be very frustrating. I’ve had S20’s for some time. They were demoed, delivered and installed by a well known and very helpful dealer from Leicestershire. They were brought in to my room, put down on our carpeted floor about 2 feet from the back wall (bookshelf lined) with a little bit of toe in - connected up and away we went. Took about 15 minutes.
When I first got them I was using an Olive 250 with an Olive Supercar - they worked very well but the bass was a little bit muddy. On some recordings they could be a little harsh when the speakers were new. A year or so later I replaced the 250 with a pair of serviced NAP 135’s. Wow.
The bass was much tighter and better defined and the occasional treble harshness was tamed - but that was also a result of putting quite a few hours on them. They are great speakers - don’t let anybody tell you they can’t do rock.
I don’t what the answer to your problem is but it is worth trying to get to the bottom of it.
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Hi bluedog, I have now set them up as per kudos web site and they sound GOOD. I must have a ( engineering term ) build up of tolerances , I have since this all started had the 32.5 balance control replaced as it was noisy on one channel, replaced all inter connects, changed from a CB hi cap to a hi cap dr ( because it had better definition ) removed mains block with surge protection and finally measured the hell out of my room set up. I’am wondering also if this pair have perfectly matched drive units hence the ridiculous lengths I have gone to in measurement and alignment , anyway double check everything tomorrow tighten the spikes and try to stop listening for what’s wrong and try to forgive the bloody things. I will post my impressions and if you are all lucky my final post on this . thanks for your words of encouragement. neil
Set my S20s dead ahead
Backs just about 15cm from the wall
Waited the (Kudos quoted…to me) 200hrs to run in, and sound amazing
Never had such “plonk and play” ease of setup
It must be a room thing… surely? ( And stop calling me Shirley)
PS…
Seem to sound better with the fronts on to me?
Never had that with a speaker before
PPS
Changed from A5 to tellurium black …nice smooth cable… better than the A5 by some degree
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Hi japtimscarlet, forgot to put the room factor in my last post . for now I will stick to the kudos set up instructions. happy with my vector victor. thanks for post. neil
Roger Roger…get your vector Victor and I’m sure you will be fine
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Not sure how “Airplane” references got into this thread (One of my favorite comedies) but it’s making my morning.
Hi bluedog, what is the amount of toe in from the back wall in cms.
Hi Lemans
Behind them they are 30cms away from a book/LP lined range of bookshelves; they are 45cms from one side-wall and about 60cms away from the other. They are toed in by 5cms and the listening spot is about 2.75m away from them. Hope this helps.
Hello Lemans,
i have the Cardea C20 and i am also struggeling with these Beasts. They are really hard to setup. Please try 10-14mm as maximum toe in. Mine are 11,5mm on the right side, and 14mm on the left side. Asymmetrical toe in helped to focus the center image.
thank you.
Hi DeRoubaix, welcome to the forum, yes they are very trying. I have had some success with the new kudos instructions on there site, but have had to get them set up to mm’s accuracy and I have used a laser pointer across the speakers front edge to get them lined up exactly. If you read this post from the start you will find other things I have changed/found to have helped. To bring things up to date the last thing I have done is to remove the final power block with surge protection which was feeding my nat 01 naps and radikal lp12 and put a dirt cheap power block with no surge protection or power light from Tesco £7 ( I am waiting for a grahams hydra, when they open again to feed all of the naim gear), that has helped to give a more focused sound ( not day and night ) . The latest and most annoying thing is after a chat with Darren at class A, he thinks it is probably down to my amps being so old and the kudos being so revealing. So I will press on and try a small toe in and fit the hydra when it becomes available, but I have a feeling this is going to get expensive. I see you have a 282/250 dr so maybe it is just a set up issue, fingers crossed. thank you for your input and I will keep you posted. best wishes neil
Different beasts I know, but after reading the Kudos speaker set up article I removed the very slight toe in I had on my 808s so that they are now parallel to the back wall and the difference was significant. This gave a much improved clarity at the top end revealing percussion which was rather subdued before. So it is worth experimenting with your toe in, a mm or two can change the sound quite a bit, certainly try them with no toe in at all to start with.
Michael, how far do u sit from your Titans and what is the distance between them?
David
David about 4m from the speakers which are 1.8m apart.