There you go Thomas , well nearly ( Bonello could be better) Im sure somebody mentioned the ideal size in a YouTube video, might even be Hans in the short video on speaker positioning 
ATB Peter
( This will annoy me now).
The absence of low bass, or severely diminished, means no problems down there to deal with (and no music to hear, or only faintly) - but the speaker goes low enough to cause resonances due to standing waves in smaller rooms
Unless the speakers are highly directional, not radiating sideways or up/down, then early reflections from ceiling, floor, side walls and rear wall have the same negative effect on sound quality regardless of size of speaker.
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I went searching on the web and in text books.
What I found is that there is no perfect room.
But there are better problems 
In other words, we choose the problems, not the room.
The room needs to be big enough in order to obtain longer horizontal reflexion times and, of course, an even room mode distribution.
Having a ceiling at ~4 meters, or more, seems to help a lot, for the reason mentioned above.
To put it simple 8,5 m x 6,5 m with a ceiling at 4 m seems to be a “minimum”.
Then add to each dimension at least 1 meter for room treatment (I mean built in the walls). Something like:
–> https://www.acousticfields.com/carbon-absorber-wall/
In such a room, I’m pretty sure that a 20K euros system sounds better then a 1 million euros system in a normal 45 square meters living room.
Unfortunately, in Switzerland, real estate is extremely expensive. Digging 1 meter more in order to get a nice basement with a ceiling at 4 meters could cost the price of a Naim Statement 
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Hi Thomas, sounds as if an unwelcome compromise is likely then. At least you now somewhat knows, what life looks in a maybe slightly smaller space. I find having a dedicated listening room really working a treat, actually also very much for my understanding wife! 
Enjoy your weekend Peter
Hi Peter,
Probably not 
But first things first, we need to find the building lot. Which means, buying an old house with enough ground around. Demolish the house then build something nice.
It’s a project we’ve been thinking about… So yes, it could include a dedicated and well thought listening room. Time will tell.
Of course you have. From what I have seen, it should sound beautifully. The one thing I’d add is some treatment to the ceiling
I consider myself lucky, my wife is quite understanding too. Especially considering what I’ve done to our living room, which is our (my?) listening room now
As long as I take her for some nice climbs or guide her through some classic routes in the Alps we’re fine.
A few years back I guided her and some friends to the Mont Blanc, she was delighted!
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Hi Thomas.
Let’s talk ceiling I revisited the ceiling one last time week before last. I fitted spare Vicoustics on ceiling 1st reflections ( my dear wife equipped with mirror on a ladder- she was brimming with joy I tell you, because this wasn’t the first time 
) and felt a duvet had been put over the leading edge on guitar replay. Needless to say the Gaffa tape took the paint with it on removal. Then I tried 10mm old fashioned wool carpet underlay nailed in- finally 5mm sheeted lambs wool. Every time I could hear the difference, but I simply didn’t like it!.. and then I spent 2 hours repairing the ceiling 
I have tested my own upper hearing with pink noise and I cannot hear a bean beyond 11 KHz and also suffer Tinitus some days worse than others. This in fact doesn’t seem to disturb the listening experience much, as you clearly can’t hear the ‘ jet like noise’ when the music takes over. I am sure my room could be made to sound more ‘ correct’ if you like, but being retired from dentistry spanning 35years with a dental turbine stuck in my ears ( well, not literally as I would otherwise have been struggling to make much of a living), I have no doubt that this has messed with my hearing. Maybe I simply need that reflection who knows?!
The reason for posting above picture is to show that the Vicoustic panel resting on top of the GIK Impression panel for some reason seems to kerb some reflections more pleasing to my ears than the ceiling itself. I do feel that it is important, that we individually tune our rooms to our liking, as we all seem to hear things differently, but also listen to very different genres of music ( It is blues my end).
I have finished my room and am extremely happy with what I’m hearing, as in the early days and even at the end, I was about to throw the towel in several times.
In fact popeye is the only person beyond myself to hear it after being finished, but I think even he very much liked what he was hearing.
We are all different and its OK! 
ATB Peter
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What an adventure! 
I guess you can really say you tested the ceiling options , and your wife seems to have been incredibly helpful. This reminds when we spent a weekend installing our first treatment parts. I drilled 72 holes!
I posted a some pictures a few months back :
–> Don’t buy new speakers – The listening room reality
We are sensible to and hear things differently, especially when it comes to the to upper frequency range.
When we glued those 16 Vicoustic panels to the ceiling (we started with 8, and then added the rest) it dramatically increased the overall resolution of the stereo image.
It was really impressive. But at a cost : an imbalance between the low and the upper frequency ranges (pretty bad decay time).
I had to add 6 huge (175cm x 60cm) GIK’s Monster Bass Traps to back wall and 4 to the front wall to correct that imbalance.
The room as it is now is quite well balanced and sounds… well, the system can now compete against fairly good headphones! 
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Seeking the flattest possible room frequency response.
The laws of physics are a reality commonly ignored. Room interactions are always a problem, especially unders 100 Hz.
“Bass traps” are often made out of porous absorbers, meaning they should be instead considered as broadband absorbers.
A typical 17cm thick “Bass Trap” absorbs down to ~100Hz then starts losing its effectiveness, as illustrated below :
The amount of porous absorber needed to absorb under lets say 50 Hz is simply immense!
In my quest for the flattest possible room’s frequency response, I’m considering investing in some PSI Audio AVAA C20 Active Bass Trap units .
The AVAA effectively absorbs frequencies between 15 and 150 Hz !!!
A combination of passive and active treatment, is probably the ultimate solution for small to medium sized rooms!
Here is a extended review of the PSI Audio AVAA C20 Active Bass Trap :
–> https://www.jochenschulz.me/en/blog/active-vs-passive-absorbers-psi-avaa-c20-review
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I first came across active traps a couple of years ago, though not heard. They seem to be an excellent solution space-wise, though at a cost - but in the context of many people’s systems the cost is not that great in relative terms, and the difference could be more than that ofa black box…
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My humble room treatment. Modified height tri traps fron GIK double as nice guitar stands. Also have a couple of monster traps for the window cill behind listening position. Unable to listen to effects properly last night. Will report back over next few days.
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“Do I need a carpet?”
Another interesting video that answers a simple question :
how does a carpet affect sound?
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So far domestically acceptable as can hide discretely behind sofa when not listening to music.
Definitely made a difference.
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Windows!
How much of a problem are they?
Common sense versus reality… the measurements!
Hi Thomas, his videos are very informative for sure. I came to realise the effect of what he is talking about in this video in my own room, hence I have retained my garden view Hope you are good Peter
As he states you should treat windows no different from any other wall.
Windows behind the speakers will have little reflection effect. My windows there only have monster bass traps at each side , leaving a good view over fields.
But windows behind the listening position will have a lot of undesirable reflections. I have monster bass traps either side , as per the front window. But I found the centre untreated part of the window caused a very noticeable distortion in the upper treble. That was cured by adding another monster bass panel in the centre of the window , which can just be removed if required. This is no problem in my case as the room is a dedicated listening room.
A question for PeterR , as I believe you have a couple of QRD diffusers in your room.
The main benefit of these appears to be to make the room seem larger which i think you found.
But nowhere can i seem to find any reference to what effect , if any , they have on the actual sound. Do they alter the imaging size , is it more diffuse , more solid , greater depth , or anything else. The only piece i did read was the suggestion that without QRD the sound is more like a direct feed from a recording booth , whereas with QRD more like a theatre.
Just wondered what you found , any input greatly received.
Hi Folkman, as per my photo I have used them to pick up part of the opposite channel’s reflection, so in theory to prevent a second reflection on the back wall and the little exposed area I’ve got of a partly covered up window by curtains and a GIK diffuser/ absorber resting on the window ledge. On the equivalent area the opposite side to the QRDs I am using 2 Vicoustic panel absorbers similar to what Thomas has used on his ceiling. In my photo you can also see it above the GIK Tritrap again in both corners to prevent image shift.
My QRDs are according to the Polish manufacturer effective between 550- 5500 Herz and you get a fanning effect more so by using several panels mounted next to each other. You also need to be more than 5 feet away from it to get the sonic benefit.
I have been a funny bugger, when it comes to treating my room, as I have been reluctant to absorb too heavily or in other words, I have tried to keep my room as lively as at all possible once I felt my reverberation was good. I tried Vicoustic absorbers in their place but strangely but preferred the QRDs. I guess you probably need a lot of them to truly hear their liveliness benefit, or the perception of the sidewalls disappearing if you like. This is all very personal and as always there could be an element of ‘ The Emperor’s new clothes’ in the way I have used them.
I know above isn’t of much help sorry, but if you want to hear more about them, you could check out acousticfields on YouTube, where Dennis Foley talks quite a lot about them and also seems to have used them a lot in his installations.
In my case I feel my room is very much allowing the music to wrap around me as in a horse shoe type scenario, if that makes sense. Is it partly down to the QRDs… dunno? I am certainly very happy about my room/ speaker interaction now and have no intent to carry a long exhausting journey on tbh.
ATB PeterAs my good friend and ex Forum member J.N would say; “ You could always suck and see”!
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Thanks Peter , all very interesting and helpfull. I do like to get as much knowledge as possible to help make my decisions but in the end i am also of the suck it and see mindset.
I have seen/read a lot by both Denis Foley and Ethan Winer, amongst others. It can be a very interesting subject although all the ‘experts’ do seem to have different thoughts.
My rear wall has room for a couple of QRDs and feel they could give good results , so i guess its only a matter of time before i do a trial.
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So after a couple of weeks with two tritraps on the front corners and two monster bass traps on the window ledge behind listening position the improvement is significant. I am particularly impressed with the monsters on the rear wall. They seem to pull everything together really focusing everything and particularly improving percussion. This really is minimal room treatment without anything for first reflection points but the improvement is significant.
Can I somehow negotiate a few more panels??? 
Maybe put some curtains up with some 244s behind them!
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Untreated Room : Frequency response 
Using REW to measure and interpret your untreated room’s frequency response.