The Listening Room Reality

Hi-Fi Corner
1724

Hi @Hawkmoon ,

I don’t live in a house, I have a flat. We are on the top floor of a small residential building.

We have a large balcony which is accessed through glass doors.

There is an access to the balcony from the kitchen and another one from the living room.

I had planned to close the access from the living room. Finally my technician suggested that we could add a door in the acoustic treatment allowing access to the balcony.

So there will be a large double door to enter the listening room and a smaller one to access the glass door, and therefore the balcony, from the listening room.

These doors are a real technical challenge. Imagine 52 cm thick doors filled with sound absorbers. Structurally it’s a real puzzle. I don’t even know yet how much it will cost :face_with_spiral_eyes:. The doors are being designed…

We have decided not to “treat” the glass door to the balcony. This will allow, if desired, daylight to enter the listening room by opening that thick door in the “acoustic wall”.

All other windows and glass surfaces in the listening room have been closed and treated.

The room will not only be treated for music, but also isolated from small outside noises.

The silence will therefore be of higher quality, which is an often neglected parameter.

The quieter the silence, if I may say so, the more it allows us to hear the tiny nuances in music.

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1725

Ok that’s explains the door i work in construction myself and yes the door will cost but it will be worth every penny ,it’s best to do it right…good luck.

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1726

Almost, DBL original boxes :wink:

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1727

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Painting : done!
Needless to say, not everyone is a plasterer or a painter.

Doing the job properly was not easy (4 evenings…)

Tomorrow I will install the 36 diffuser modules (Vicoustic Multifuser 64).

Friday and this weekend I’m tackling the electricity. The circuit breaker panel will be done by an electrician. But I’ll take care of the wiring (power and ethernet), the outlets and the carpentry.

The 15 m3 of Caruso Iso Bond will arrive next week.

In short, there is still a lot of work to do… :sweat_smile:

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1728

Good work Thomas :+1:t3::partying_face: Best Peter

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1729

In terms of the greatest value for money / effort, the improvement for me has been either the room treatment or building my own cables using Mogami W2497 (these only cost me <£100 and a few of hours of my time - making up connectors using that cable is quite difficult).

OK, the improvements from an ND5 XS/ NAIT XS2 to 272/300DR and 272 bare to 272/555DR were considerably greater, but nowhere near 20x greater!

1730

The phase plot is more complicated because you didn’t use the ‘Minimum Phase’ plot, but does suggest different effective path lengths (i.e. average of direct and first reflection sound) from the main speakers to the listening position, maybe even as much 1.3m for the first reflection, and maybe as much as 0.5m for the direct sound.

If the SPL plot is L&R under the same circumstances, there’s definitely something odd going on, possible with the position of the sub on the green trace.

1731

Still learning how to interpret the results. The SPL plot is for LH snd RH speaker only the 40hz peak on the LH speaker trace gets way worst when i switch on the Sub.

The Sub is next to the LH speaker so whatever is causing the peak is also picking up the Sub.

I spent some time moving the sub around and found placing it by the RH speaker removes that 40 hz peak when playing the Sub only, and gives a more even plot with all 3 speakers playing. I have a feeling some serious absorption is needed on the back wall to make it ‘dissapear’

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1732

Looking good Thomas.

1733

What a great thread. Loving watching the transformation. I’m sure all the forum members will wait in turn for an invite to have a listen. Keep the pics coming. :ok_hand:

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1734

Initial thoughts (but these may change if I get to see the more specific plots as requested below)…

Your sub’s crossover is set to high
The sub is in the wrong place (not properly phase integrated)
The sub and the bass reflex ports of the speakers are interacting causing phasing issues.
You need more bass absorption.
You are getting substantial problems from 1st reflection from the left wall.

The asymmetry around the speakers would be reduced by moving them further into the room. This will create other issues, but overall may well be an improvement - the right speaker is not in a good position.

The ‘Minimum Phase’ plot would be a lot more instructive than the raw phase plot - it’s a LOT easier to interpret.
To help, I really need to see L&R SPL and Minimum Phase, both with and without the sub.
I can’t promise to provide fixes for ALL the room problems! (It also may take me a little time to respond as I’m currently waiting for eye surgery.)

You may (or indeed may not) be noticing a slight upper mid-band harshness - if you are hearing that, I can’t fix it!

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1735

Hi Xanthe

You are a rock my friend. I have all of the measurements you mentioned. And happy to post, just didnt want to hijack Thomas’s brilliant thread too much. But if people dont mind i will. Might be an interesting comparison as i cant build a dedicated room how much better can i make a far from ideal room.

You are also spot on with your analysis! I sent my measurements to the folk at GIK. And they picked out most, not all! Of your observations.

Way too much bass energy being the priority

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1736

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This weekend I worked ~20 hours. :face_with_spiral_eyes:

I put the 6 cables dedicated to the hifi in fireproof tubes; 4 huge power cables and 2 network cables.

I ran all these cables through 2 walls! It was a tough job. It takes a good pair of arms to hold the massive drill at arm’s length.

Moved electrical outlets and light switches.

I installed the acoustic diffusers. This was also a big job. First I had to scrape off the glue and the rest of the glued plaster.

I had planned to post pictures of the mess and intermediate steps. But I’m too tired and I still have work to do, the one that pays the bills and the toys! :sweat_smile:

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1737

Instead of hijacking Thomas’s thread, maybe start a new thread tagging me so I get an alert.

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1738

Have you seen the “Jay’s Audio Lab” 2 part interview with Emile Bok from Taiko on YouTube? Part 1 here

1740

I cant figure how to tag you! Ive created a thread called the terrible listening room

1741

FYI, just type in @ and you should see a list of member names appear.

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1742

Really interesting, thank you!

The way Roon is implemented is unusual. It was that specific reason, among others, that made me choose the Taiko server.

The software improvements have been such that Roon has supplanted TAS (Taiko Audio’s software) in sound quality.

I believe that, for the moment, the Taiko Server is the best option available. But this market segment is rapidly evolving.

EDIT :

It is a pity that Emile Bok of Taiko Audio was not able to go into more detail about his product.

In my opinion, the interviewer did a poor job. Instead of asking questions, he simply told his own experience.

For those interested there is a whole thread dedicated to Taiko Audio on What’s Best Forum.

2 Likes
1743

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The 15 cubic metres of Caruso Iso Bond arrive tomorrow.

I’m going to store it all in the garage until I finish the electrical installation.

The car will be left in the outside car park for a few days.

The thickness of the absorbing material around the listening area will vary between 48 cm and 52 cm. Which is a lot! :sweat_smile:

In fact, it’s more than in many mastering studios.

Why so much?

The truth is : I simply don’t know.

It is very difficult to estimate the amount of absorbing material needed to reach a specific goal.

I wasn’t able to find how to calculate this. The literature on the subject is non-existent, or not easily accessible.

For velocity-based absorption the rule is simple: the more the better.

I would even dare to say more, it is essential to have too much of it.

In fact, not enough could even be a problem and cause imbalance.

Unfortunately, placing a couple of panels here and there, as often seen, has no effect on the low spectrum.

To effectively hit under 150 Hz we need a huge amount of porous material. Hence the amount I’ll install.

This should give me a nice frequency response down to 45 Hz :star_struck:

Measurements should confirm this. Well, I hope so! :sweat_smile:

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1744

I see you’ve isolated yourself from the floor :rofl: