Tiger Paw LP12 with Lingo 4 vs Radikal

Hi-Fi Corner
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Greetings all,

I would welcome any feedback on the following, particularly from users who have had listening experiences of the matters I’m interested in.

My current spec LP 12, Lingo 3, Trampolin 2, Cirkus, Ekos 1, Dynavector 17D3, Prefix - Olive Hicap.

I am very happy with the above and not itching to go the full SE upgrade path, tbh I baulk at the cost of Keel and Ekos SE. I am however considering the possibility of adding a Tiger Paw Kahn, Akula or Kore and maybe even a Javelin once I have added the Kahn etc and able to compare Ekos to Javelin on the same.

With the introduction of the Lingo 4 it probably makes sense to upgrade to that first, I could also perhaps stretch to a Radikal.
However, getting a direct comparitive demo of Lingo 4 vs Radikal on otherwise equally matched LPI2’s I suspect might be difficult as Radikal is part of the overall Klimax LP12 package with Lingo 4 part of the Akurate package and A/B comparisons of each package is what most Linn dealers would probably be prepared to demonstrate.

My understanding is that Lingo 4 shares the same speed management technology as Radikal, the fundamental remaining difference appears to be the use of A/C and D/C motors respectively. So theoretically at least they appear very close, therefore is the sound of the Radikal still significantly better than Lingo 4. Considering the law of diminishing returns and allowing for sale or trade in of my Lingo 3, the extra outlay for L4 is around £950 rising to around £2500 for Radikal ie does 2.5 times more outlay equal 2.5 times better sound? And in the context of a Tiger Paw spec LP12 as outlined above.

Thanks

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:small_blue_diamond: Dreadatthecontrols,…I want to very strongly warn of ”The LP12-Radikal Problem"

If you are thinking of a Radikal together with the Trampolin 2,…seek out a trader who takes this problem seriously,…and can check as well as do a proper installation.
Unfortunately,…not all traders take this seriously,…also internationally well-known traders.
This is probably because Linn itself,…”stops the head in the sand",and denies that the problem exists.

Search for the thread :black_small_square:"LP12-Radikal Problem" on the older forum.
And read my posts,and you will get all the information.

:black_small_square:Attach a post below from a disappointed forum member who highlights the problem…

”Maybe I’m being melodramatic but I am saddened by this more than anything.
Just seems a great shame Linn chose to ignore it rather than own up to the problem and help their dealers fix it.
I would like to have seen them act with the integrity and maturity,not shy away from their mistake.
It’s the sort of grown up behaviour we teach our children.
As already stated by another member, everyone makes mistakes.
I can’t deny being annoyed when I first heard of the problem,but it’s actually by their reaction that Linn has let themselves down.”

/Peder🙂

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Care to elaborate please? No results on search and your comment doesnt highlight anything

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This does not answer your question, which happens a lot here, but what is your LP-12 sitting on? And have you checked out the Tiger Paw Tranquillity? These are cheaper, closer-to-source-first issues that you may want to address first.

Is there something about the Lingo 3 that bothers you? Why start there?

BTW, if you are using a mains block or power strip, do not plug your TT into it. Plug it into the wall or something else. Otherwise, it will make every other source sound worse, even if the TT is not turned on. Even if you don’t have other sources, taking your TT out of the block and plugging it into the wall will make your electronics sound better. You can check this out in 5 minutes.

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:small_blue_diamond: Dreadatthecontrols,…On the old forum,…Hifi Corner,…LP12 Radikal Problem.

I haven’t tried,…But I think you can search the old forum now.?

Otherwise you can look at Lejonklou’s forum,…“On The Inside”…“LP12 Radikal Problem”.
Same headline,but another thread creator.

I think I’ll post this information again,it’s important for anyone who is going to invest big money.
It is a responsibility that we have against our forum friends,…not to withhold information so that costly misinvestment is made.
This regardless of whether the manufacturer is called Linn, Naim, Creek, Krell or something else.

I don’t have time now,…but will later in a new thread,post information on how to fix this “LP12 Radikal Problem”

/Peder🙂

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FYI, the issue around the Radikal package is that in some cases (I’m unclear of the quantum/%) the replacement motor, which is part of the package, is longer in body and can touch the Trampolin – which, of course, it shouldn’t – and this has adverse impacts on the sound.

With my £, I would start with the Tranquility (IIRC ~£400) which I found to provide a meaningful improvement in detailing and flow - and this also reduces the stress on the bearing which (one would think) would ease the demands on the speed controller too.

Suggest get this dealer fitted/at least shown to you, as the LP12’s suspension is put under greater load and is likely to require fettling.

I would then investigate KhanAkula/Kore.

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My LP 12 purchased ex-dem at 12 months old came with Keel, Tiger Paw top plate, SE arm to which I added a TP Tranquility, Kandid and Radikal. I’m one of those awful people who services my own deck using a Kradle and the correct tools. In terms of servicing the Radikal motor and Khan top plate make the whole process so much simpler. Horror of horrors I also fitted the Radikal myself which is probably why I don’t experience the issues described at some length by Pedder. I have an excellent dealer who’s looked over my work and approves - not that I’d offer support to anyone else though! Roger at TP also walked me through the Tranquility installation. As for the sound - love it - as simple as that.

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Thanks Happy Listener,
The Tranquility will figure in my considerations, I overlooked to mention it in my thread opener. Thanks for pointing it out and clarifying what the issue might be with the Radikal motor.

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Thank God you started this thread …it’s been weeks since Peder had the chance to mention “the problem” …

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Well, thanks to Happy Listener, in one sentence he has explained “the problem”.
Nuff said I think

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:small_blue_diamond: Japtimscarlet,…That kind of rude nonsense that you throw out,…Yes it says quite a lot about you as a person.
Take instead the responsibility,and inform,and give advice to your forum friends.
It would be nicer to see,than that you try to take cheap points at the expense of others.

I know in what tray I place people who display the properties you express in your post,…But I keep it for myself.

This is as great a scandal as Volkswagen’s cheating with exhaust values.
The Factory in Scotland,and many traders are doing everything to try to hide the problem.
No one tells customers who have invested…
£10 000 – £20 000:-,…that they up to 65-70% have a fault in their expensive LP12.

With your comment on me,…I interpret it as meaning,that you do not care about this,…and if your forum friends who have this LP12-problem.
BUT I CARE ABOUT,…Have you invested big money in your turntable….
Yes,…then you have of course the right to demand that it is flawless…Or how.!

This is so obvious,so it should not have to be mentioned.

:black_small_square:Below is a post by a forum friend,who has been helped by the information I put in,…It feels good in the heart.
You should act yourself,so you get to experience that feeling…Instead of being rude.

And he below,…who got a working LP12,is probably even happier.

"Here’s another personal experience with the Radikal Motor problem:

About six weeks ago my dealer installed a Radikal/Urika/1.
It’s a great improvement over the Lingo2/Linto. Although I wasn’t completely happy.
I thought it needs some run in time. After four weeks it was a bit better but I still had the feeling of driving a car with hand brakes not fully released.
After checking many other things like tracking force, torque settings etc.
I saw a posting in the naim forum from Peder who referred to this thread.

At first I couldn’t believe my trusted dealer didn’t check this obvious problem.
I did the paper Test and there it was: The motor really touched the Trampolin foot.
As I don’t use the trampolin I just had to remove one rubber foot.
Now the TT sounds almost as good as it should. In 2 1/2 months I’ll get a replacement for my Kandid which is over 4 years old and well beyond it’s way out.

I don’t know why Linn says it makes no difference. It’s disturbing for me as a Linnie of almost 25 years.

Thank you very much for your great work

Paul"

And,to understand the size of the LP12 problem.

“Some strong rumors say that the Radikal problem is the principal cause of the shut down of the Linn forum”

/Peder🙂

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I think the Linn hierarchy would be Kore first, then Lingo 4.
I had a rebuild of plinth, Cirkus, Kore, solid base and Lingo 3 from a 1978 deck that had a Hercules power supply, just a week before Lingo 4 was announced.
I went back after three months and had the Lingo 4 fitted. That was as big a difference as all the other parts. Definitely recommended.
I guess with the number of demo decks on display the best option is @cymbiosis. On his website Peter does say email with any queries, do that may be worth a message. He certainly helped me.

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I went from Lingo 3 to Radikal. Many dealers recommend it as the first upgrade as it is so fundamental to improving the LP12. Personally I would do this rather than the Lingo 4 followed by Kore or Keel. Arm and cartridge last, but as ever you need to dem if at all possible. Good luck.

Stu

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Peder, you appear like someone with an agenda.
Another contributor has explained the alleged “problem” thank you.

With respect I belive you are attempting to highjack this thread which is unhelpful, uninformative and provoking a slagging matchwill only serve to put off other members from contributing to this thread and I want to hear from them.

So with respect, please take your axe and grind it elsewhere.

I am going to request intervention from the Moderater

Peace

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Peder, I will interject here. I think it’s best to let the OP get on with their thread, and avoid any diversion here - please start a new thread if you wish to discuss any further “motor touching” of the Trampolin foot.

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:small_blue_diamond: Richard,…My last answer to the OP,I had already written the answer when I saw your post :slightly_smiling_face:.

I have given you information,about where you can find a description of this problem.

You chose not to look up that information,…but thought that I would take my time,to describe this in the thread instead.
I didn’t have time for that,…”I can’t both cook food and feed You "…Eat, you can make yourself :wink::grin:.

My and others agenda (if you called it so),…is to be whistle blower on this LP12-problem,…so that customers,friends,forum friends should get a flawless turntable.
If you don’t appreciate it,…and to know about ”the problem".
Yes it’s up to you.

/Peder :slightly_smiling_face:

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Well not a problem here - I love my LP12 and have been well supported by Linn over 30 years of owning two decks. Perhaps not as well supported as with Naim though - there, I had to say that! Also no issues with Naim over these years just helpfulness and musical delight! Jason and Phil have from time to time gone well beyond the call. Three cheers and all that…

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Thanks Stu, was the Lingo 4 available when you upgraded to Radikal, and was you able to evaluate the 4 vs Radikal. I’m wondering how big a difference the Radikal now is given the 4 appears to share the same tech as the Radikal other than the DC motor.

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Mine came with a Khan and Keel already fitted. I went from a lingo 2/ac motor to a Radikal before the latest Lingo 4 upgrade. I think I would do the same now as I would have always been thinking if I’d shortchanged myself…funds permitting obviously. Is there no way that a top drawer specialist like Cymbiosis could advise? I’m not sure if they could arrange a side by side demo if you were close enough to them.

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Thanks Catswhiskers,

I believe the correct hierarchy post Cirkus is motor/power supply, sub chassis/armboard, arm cartridge.

Thats why I’m considering the Lingo 4 vs Radikal as first step and musing as to how much better the Radikal is now they both share similar spec. I’m trying to keep budget on the sensible side (Im not itching for full SE spec on cost grounds)

I could probably go Radikal/Keel and forsake the Tiger Paw mods or a more holistic aproach with Lingo 4, Kahn, Akula or Kore.

Im looking for this to be a probable final round of upgrades to my LP12 and draw a line.

Yes, Peter at Cymbiosis has a great reputation and seems more open minded to alternative manufacturers upgrades, but he’s a long ride from me, still I may make the effort.

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